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Post by kmanning on Aug 7, 2012 22:24:10 GMT -5
Hi Tom,
I've been going over the Flight Simulation Control Interface Harmonization tutorial and I found it very interesting on how the configurations in FS9 and FSX affect the views we see. I for one definitely want the correct view. I have some questions I want to go over with you so I can have a better understanding, so here goes.
I have the PMDG 737NGX for FSX and in my manual, it states that I should edit the Wide View Aspect=True since I have a wide screen monitor. For those who have a standard 4:3 monitor, it states that Wide View Aspect=False.
Now, from my understanding, Wide View Aspect=True is for those who only have wide screen monitors. Wide View Aspect=False by default. When I edit Wide View Aspect=True as the manual suggests, the outside view was completely distorted and the objects were way too far away in the 2D panel view. I'm not talking about the panel itself but the outside view, as you're looking out the window. The view looks okay in the virtual cockpit panel. In the 2D panel view, the outside view looks as though the zoom factor was set at x0.30, although it says x1.00. When I pressed the W key to remove the 2D panel view, then the outside view was no longer distorted and the objects looked correct. I discussed this at another forum and one person noticed that when he put his mouse curser over the outside view in the 2D panel view and left click and hold the mouse button, it only covered about half the screen. So, I checked this out myself and sure enough when I clicked over the outside view, the outside view only covered about half the screen. So what I did was I moved the 2D panel up the screen out of the way so that I could click on the bottom edge of the outside view and bring it down so that it covered the entire screen. After doing this, the view looked correct. In your tutorial, I noticed this formula:
[Default View]
X=0
Y=0
SIZE_X=8192 //always 8K = 8 * 1024 = 8192
SIZE_Y=5700 //ideally 6K = 6 * 1024 = 6144
I checked this in my PMDG 737NGX panel.cfg and this is what's in the text:
[Default View]
X=0
Y=0
SIZE_X=8192
SIZE_Y=3500
I changed the SIZE_Y=6144 and the view looked correct. I checked other aircrafts in FSX and many of them are not using the Y=6144. I also checked the panel.cfg in FX9 and many of the aircrafts also have Y less than 6144. Although Y is less than 6144, the outside view was always correct.
So, I not sure what's happening. So, my question is should SIZE Y always = 6144? And could you explain more about Wide View Aspect and why the objects were zoomed out too far?
Ken.
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Aug 8, 2012 9:54:47 GMT -5
Hi,
I don't know what PMDG does when you set Wide View Aspect to true (where is this done?), so I can't address that issue. That is not a default FS command. You will either have to give me more information or avoid using that.
FSAviator and I searched for a good way to get the proper view out of the window, and it was Ken Mitchell (Mitch) and his DC-6 panel that showed us the way. He and most others up until then were using half height outside views, just as you found out on your plane. This gives the one advantage of compressing the vertical component, so the horizon is almost always in view, no matter what pitch attitude. While convenient, this is not really true, especially for the typical airliner with relatively small cockpit windows.
What Mitch found was you could stretch the outside view to full screen (giving it the proper proportions), and then use the VIEW_DIR value in the panel.cfg file to adjust the vertical view angle out the window so the horizon is is at your eye level out the window when the plane is level, just as in real life. In our opinion, this gives the most realistic view out the window. So under ideal conditions SIZE Y should always be 6144. That said, we have found a few 2D panels that won't allow that to happen, because the view out the windows cannot be adjusted using the VIEW_DIR value to give a reasonable view while SIZE Y remains at 6144. For those panels the SIZE Y must be reduced, but just until the view becomes reasonable.
For standard square 4:3 monitors, FS9 was designed to be used at zoom = 1, which will give you the proper apparent distance to obstacles outside the plane. Determining obstacle clearance is one of the most important skills to master, and zoom = 1 is required for this (especially if you fly in real life). If you use a wide screen monitor, FS increases the apparent zoom to compensate and you must lower your zoom value to (for example) 0.75 for 16:9 monitors to end up with the same proportions and object distances.
Hope this helps,
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Post by kmanning on Aug 8, 2012 23:41:29 GMT -5
Hi, I don't know what PMDG does when you set Wide View Aspect to true (where is this done?), so I can't address that issue. That is not a default FS command. You will either have to give me more information or avoid using that. FSAviator and I searched for a good way to get the proper view out of the window, and it was Ken Mitchell (Mitch) and his DC-6 panel that showed us the way. He and most others up until then were using half height outside views, just as you found out on your plane. This gives the one advantage of compressing the vertical component, so the horizon is almost always in view, no matter what pitch attitude. While convenient, this is not really true, especially for the typical airliner with relatively small cockpit windows. What Mitch found was you could stretch the outside view to full screen (giving it the proper proportions), and then use the VIEW_DIR value in the panel.cfg file to adjust the vertical view angle out the window so the horizon is is at your eye level out the window when the plane is level, just as in real life. In our opinion, this gives the most realistic view out the window. So under ideal conditions SIZE Y should always be 6144. That said, we have found a few 2D panels that won't allow that to happen, because the view out the windows cannot be adjusted using the VIEW_DIR value to give a reasonable view while SIZE Y remains at 6144. For those panels the SIZE Y must be reduced, but just until the view becomes reasonable. For standard square 4:3 monitors, FS9 was designed to be used at zoom = 1, which will give you the proper apparent distance to obstacles outside the plane. Determining obstacle clearance is one of the most important skills to master, and zoom = 1 is required for this (especially if you fly in real life). If you use a wide screen monitor, FS increases the apparent zoom to compensate and you must lower your zoom value to (for example) 0.75 for 16:9 monitors to end up with the same proportions and object distances. Hope this helps, Hi Tom, Yes, what you said about FSAviator and Ken Mitchell kind of explains the problems I was having. You mentioned that they used to use half height outside views and that's exactly what I found when I looked in the PMDG 737NGX panel.cfg and Y=3500. One could also move the mouse pointer over the outside view in FSX and simply click and hold down the mouse button. The outside view only covered about half the screen. So what I did was I moved the 2D panel out of the way and stretched the outside view so that it covered the entire screen. I checked the other aircrafts in FSX and I noticed most of them do not use Y=6144. So the distortions were not only with the PMDG 737NGX but also I had some distortions with other aircrafts, even the Level D. Now when you said that you, FSAviator, and Mitchell found a way to get the proper view, does this apply only to FSX or both FSX and FS9? The reason I ask is because this problem does not seem to exist in FS9. In FS9, you can squeeze the vertical view and there is no compression as it does in FSX. Even though the view covers only half the screen or less, I can stretch it out and I would still have the same view. It doesn't seem to affect the zoom as it does in FSX. So I assume these issues are found only in FSX. At least that's what I've found. I've read in your tutorials that for those with 16:9 wide screen monitors and using FSX, one would need to set the zoom to x0.56 to have the correct view. Is this based on when Wide View Aspect=False? You asked where is this done. I guess you mean where do you go to change the Wide View Aspect. It's located in the FSX.CFG file. If you're running Windows 7, it's located at: Users\Your Name\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\FSX. In the FSX.CFG file, you scroll down until you come to [Display]. Then scroll down until you come to Wide View Aspect=False. This is the default setting in FSX. Is it possible for me to post screen shots of the images I talked about? I like for you to see those screen shots so that you'll know exactly what's happening but I think you have some idea based on what you said about FSAviator and Ken Mitchell. Let me know. Ken. |
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Post by Johan Dees on Aug 9, 2012 7:28:20 GMT -5
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Post by Pixel Pilot on Aug 9, 2012 9:39:50 GMT -5
Thank you Johan. That video was very helpful.
Ed
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Aug 9, 2012 9:56:33 GMT -5
What I said applies to both FS9 and FSX (all of our panels started out in FS9), but for FSX there is a further modification required because the default zoom value is different in FSX and it has a VC view bug. I had never heard of that FSX setting before; here is an explanation: a2asimulations.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=21610&p=164708&hilit=WideViewAspect#p164708That video does give a great explanation. Basically, what it does (if you set it to TRUE) is flip the default behavior (zoom is based on the *height* of the monitor vs the width), to the opposite (zoom is based on the *width* of the monitor vs the height). The video also shows that a zoom of 1.0 is almost always correct with that set to TRUE, just the same as in FS9 using a 4:3 square monitor. Hope this helps, |
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Aug 9, 2012 10:45:43 GMT -5
PS. I've now tried out setting Wide View Aspect to TRUE and my zoom to 1.0 (in the panel.cfg file and in any Camera views in the aircraft.cfg file) and I really like it. Makes it very easy to remember the proper zoom settings - it's always 1.0 for everyone.  Thanks, |
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Aug 9, 2012 12:07:26 GMT -5
I think this is a nice improvement, so I've edited the FSX Propliner Tutorial to use this setting. It makes things easier since the zoom is always 1.0, no matter what type of monitor you use.
Note that the CalClassic VC Camera Definitions (in the aircraft.cfg file) and any CalClassic widescreen panel.cfg zoom values will all need to be altered to 1.0 when using this technique. The camera definitions will eventually be changed to 1.0 as the planes are updated (hopefully soon), but the widescreen panel.cfg's will need to be changed since they are set for FS9 values by default.
Thanks,
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Aug 9, 2012 13:10:17 GMT -5
Well, if it is an entry in the cfg file it should work changing that by hand too. I'll have to try it, thanks.
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Post by kmanning on Aug 9, 2012 21:14:10 GMT -5
The video also shows that a zoom of 1.0 is almost always correct with that set to TRUE, just the same as in FS9 using a 4:3 square monitor. Hi Tom, From your Flight Simulation Control Interface Harmonisation Tutorial, it says: This must also be done when using FSX, but in that sim the correct zoom value for a square monitor is 0.75 (see the FSX mini-tutorial), so using my widescreen monitor I need to use a zoom value of 0.75 (the value I use in FS9) X 0.75 = 0.55. So I set my zoom value in FSX to 0.55, and edit the Camera Definitions to that value as well. I thought when using FSX, the correct zoom is x0.75 for the 4:3 square monitors and x0.56 for 16:9 wide screen monitors. I'm a little confused now. Also, is it possible for me to send you some screen shots of the problem I'm having? Ken. |
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Aug 10, 2012 9:55:59 GMT -5
It doesn't say that any more. Thanks for catching that. With the Wide View Aspect variable set to True, a zoom of 1.0 is always the correct zoom value in FSX. The previous 0.75 and 0.56 values are when that variable is set to False. Hope this helps, |
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Post by kmanning on Aug 10, 2012 22:05:08 GMT -5
It doesn't say that any more. Thanks for catching that. With the Wide View Aspect variable set to True, a zoom of 1.0 is always the correct zoom value in FSX. The previous 0.75 and 0.56 values are when that variable is set to False. Hope this helps, Thanks Tom, But I've noticed something that I want to address. I've compared both views with Wide View Aspect=False and Wide View Aspect=True. When I set Wide View Aspect=True, what I've noticed is that the view is stretching across the screen, given the same view as it did when it was set to false. Resolution is 1920:1080. On a wide screen monitor and Wide View Aspect=True, from what I read and from watching the video, I should be getting a wider view but I'm not getting that. So, do I need to set the zoom to x0.75 to get the correct view when using wide screen monitors as you talked about in the tutorial? Ken. |
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Aug 11, 2012 10:55:16 GMT -5
No, you shouldn't. You should get exactly the *same* view with WVA= True and zoom = 1.0 as you did with WVA = False and the zoom set to 0.56, at least in the VC. In the 2D panel I actually see that True and 1.0 gives me a little more zoomed out than False and 0.56. Both should give you very close to the correct zoom value and thus view out the window. Here are some pictures on my machine, I run my 16:9 monitor at 1600 x 900, so it's running at the same proportion as the screen itself: First, here is the old look for the 2D panel - False and 0.56 zoom:  Now here is True and 1.0:  Here is the VC, False and 0.56 zoom:  And finally True and 1.0:  As you can see, the VC view is virtually identical, and the 2D view is slightly zoomed out. Pretty close in my mind... This slight difference in the 2D panel is magnified when the panel has a very short outside view (vertically), like the default Cessna 2D panel. In this case you might want to increase the zoom 2 or 3 clicks to get the view you got with False, but that's your call (I never fly the Cessna using the 2D panel - horrible...). Hope this helps, |
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Aug 11, 2012 10:57:13 GMT -5
BTW, for the VC you get *exactly* the same view with False at 0.53 zoom (vs the theoretical 0.56) to True and 1.0. Pretty close indeed...
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Post by Johan Dees on Aug 11, 2012 11:30:51 GMT -5
So FSX is not as broken as FSAviator tells us.
I compared some shots from airliners.net with my setup, and with TRUE and 1.0 zoom, at the same altitude it looks the same to me. So 1.0 zoom with wideview TRUE is definitly okay.
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