UAL Question

[louross]

Anybody here from UAL or know anyone? (have to be pretty old)
Pilot starts on DC3 in 1950. How long to move up to the DC4?
thanks,
lr.

[acourt]

Ooh. That's a tough one. I wasn't there back then, but I can give you a few examples from more modern times.

At my first carrier, elapsed time from when I walked on the property to my upgrade award was eleven months (yikes). My flow was Jetstream FO, Saab FO, Saab Captain (I spent much of my first year in class of some sort).

At my second carrier, my approximate upgrade time was three to four years, although I bailed out of that place before I got the chance to upgrade. Wisely, as it turns out, since I would have been furloughed only a few months later anyway.

My current carrier was upgrading in three years to the same equipment type when I was hired. Now it's more like six or seven years, to either the same equipment type or the other type.

My father flew for Eastern. He was hired in '67 on the Convair 440. His first chance at upgrade came 18 years later.

There were some guys at TWA that completed their careers without ever seeing the left seat.

I guess all I can say is that you pose a very difficult question! Upgrade or transition time between seats and types is almost impossible to determine without having been there. And I unfortunately don't have any data from UAL's DC-3/DC-4 time period to know.

But if I had to guess, I would say the time to go from newhire on the DC-3 to any seat on the DC-4 would be at least one to three years. That's only a semi-scientific wild a**ed guess!

Al

[louross]

Very interesting, Al. I knew PanAm was very slow on the move to left seat, as is or was Mexicana. Didn't know about the others. I do know that if you went to UAL in 1950 or there abouts moving to the left seat was right about 8 years. I can't say much about equipment upgrades tho. After hire on the DC3, you'd be on the DC6 in maybe 4 years and DC7 a year or two later.
lr.

[jesse]

I flew right seat in the C-47 for 24 months before being moved over to the left seat. I went from 1945 to 1950 before transferring to the right seat of the C-54. I moved to the C-54 left seat after six months and in 1952 moved to the C-97G right seat for one year before becoming AC in left seat. Between '52 and 59 I was checked out in the C-121 and C-118. I think upgrading and promotions came a bit faster in USAF than in the Civil fleet. The big difference I think was in the payscale. USAF pay remained the same regardless of which seat you were in.

Jesse

[Lockheed]

All this 'upgrading' is done by senority. There first has to be an opening either by retirement or new equipment being purchased. Then depending on your senority and whether you want to move to where the vacancy is or not, you can make the upgrade.

I had been with EAL for 6 months as Co-Pilot on the Connies prior to being hired at UAL in 1964 and was a DC-6 FE in YIP. 9 months later I was a DC-6 Co-Pilot at ORD. As time went on I could've upgraded to FE or FO on any jet there was, but chose to stay on the DC-6 as Co-Pilot and remain senior in order to get the choice schedules as I was a "commuter". I was the last DC-6 Co-Pilot [and Number ONE] in Chicago before they were phased out in 1969 and I had to choose where I wanted to go. I had the senority to go to any seat on the airline, except the left seat. So, in order to retain my relative senority, I went to the 737 as Co-Pilot, still at ORD. I remained there until I was able to hold top schedule on the DC-8 as Co-Pilot and then bid over to the -8. That was in 1978 and at that time or shortly before, I could have held the left seat on the -37. I did NOT want to fly Reserve, so stayed on the -8 until I was Number Two and had enough senority to fly Capt on the -37 and have choice schedules. Flew Capt. on the -37 for a few years then I went to the left seat on the -8 when I got good senority there and flew that until I retired.

So, there are many variables to upgrading in this business. And while I wasn't there in the time period you questioned about, it was probably pretty much the same then as now. And, every airline will be different. There is no 'rule' that you have to upgrade, although we all got our ATRs in the DC-6 before they were gone. Once the -6 was gone, those without an ATR got it when they upgraded to Captain for the first time.

[louross]

Understand alll that perfectly; and the replies are interseting.

So you retired on the 8. Where were you based at retirement? Ever bid DEN, SFO, LAX, SEA?

[Tom/CalClassic]

I also have a question for the military and civil propliner pilots. I think we have a pretty good handle on how you managed the takeoff, METO, climb, approach and landing segments. But the real question is how did you decide on:

Cruise Segment:
Cruise power setting (and short range vs long range)
Cruise Altitude(s)
Step Climbs

Descent Segment:
Power setting(s)
Descent Rate(s)
TOD/BOD times (i.e. how far from the airport)
ATC issues?

Flight Planning:
IFR vs VFR?
ATC interactions - like today, or very different?

Thanks,

[jesse]

Tom, I can't speak for the Civil operations, but as to the Military; we had our own equivalent of the CAA/FAA controllers. The organization charged with overseeing the flight operations was known as AACS. During WWII it was called Army Airways Communications Service. They only had basic control facilities such as the airdrome control tower. Basic short range radio communications between the pilot and the tower; and of course, the old Biscuit Gun. Red, Green and White light. If you entered the pattern, the tower would give you a green light if it was clear to procede or a red light if you were not to land.

After WWII, AACS became a part of the New USAF and was called Airways and Air Communications Service. The facilities had improved somewhat for that period of time. Each Military facility that had a landing field also had a Adcock Radio range station, and since the military also flew the Airways along with the civilian aircraft, they followed the CAA rules. Certain stations were mandatory check points and as you approached, say Wink for example you would call Wink with your position report and they would teletype the information to the area control center.
Each center and tower maintained what was called a flight progress strip chart. This strip chart kept track of all the aircraft in that respective area as it moved along the airways. Most of the time we were on VFR since it was not necessary to fly much higher than 10,000 - 12,000 feet. We didn't have pressurization until much later and could fly higher. When we reached our destination if it was IFR, the control tower would assign us a specific altitude if there was quite a bit of traffic and we would go into a race track holding pattern between the cone of silence and a 75Mcs marker beacon situated on one of the legs of the range. If a beacon was not available, then we would fly a timed pattern. When the traffic was thinned out, we would move down the stack in the holding pattern until it was time for our landing approach using GCA.

It was a rare occaision to use a TOD since we were slow moving and not too high. DME had not come on board yet. We did not have any kind of ATC as we know it today. Our cross country flights were governed by the old CAA rule even thousands plus 500 for flight between 180 and 359 degrees for VFR and for IFR it was even thousands. For flight between 0 degrees and 179 VFR was odd thousands plus 500 feet and for IFR it was odd thousands.

All flight operations such as takeoff, climb, cruise and descent were governed by the gross weight of the aircraft and in accord with the charts in the dash one.

VOR, ILS, and TACAN were in their infancy and just coming into use at the time of my retirement from USAF in 1963. Control Zones as we know them today hardly existed except at major airports like ORD, JFK, DCA, etc.

For a little history on ARTCC, here is a nice article from Wiki.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_traffic_control#History

[ejoiner]

These kinds of discussions is why I love this site and forum! I learn a ton.

Thanks to you old guys! :-)

Eric

[acourt]

I can tell you anything you want to know about operating and flight planning for a turboprop But I don't think that's what you have in mind for "propliners."

Seriously, though. I'm sure everyone's seen this site. But if not, follow the link to "Stories" on the right. Read the items under "Flying The Line by thingy Brown." You'll find LOTS of good information there, especially under "Flying the Line in the Upper Midwest North Country on North Central Airlines." It's the only essay I've found that describes, in detail, just how flying was done way back when.

www.hermantheduck.org/index.html

Al

[jesse]

Al, here's a little trick to eliminate the name thingy. Space the letters between D i c k and you will have the nickname for Richard okay.

Jesse

[acourt]

Jesse,

Hmmm. I didn't even notice the "thingy" edit! Technology is an amazing "thingy," isn't it?

Al

[Lockheed]

ejoiner -
Thanks to you old guys!

Hey !! I resemble that remark !!

- - - - -
Thanks for the Link, Al. I grew up where WISCONSIN Central had their home base until it became North Central and moved to MSP. Great airline.
- - - - -

Mr. Gibson: I'll try on a few of your ??s

Cruise Segment:
Cruise power setting (and short range vs long range) - There were cruise power settings in the manual that the FE had. I was never involved in any "long range" stuff, but there again, the 'book' had all the answers. When we flew the Michigan Cites, the Captain would usually call for "Michigan City Cruise" on the DC-6. So, when I was an Engineer, I gave him 30/20. [30"MAP/2000RPM]


Cruise Altitude(s) - Either company Flight Planned Altitude or the Captain chose his own based on conditions and whether or not we were VFR/IFR.

Step Climbs - Never had to do one.

Descent Segment:
Power setting(s) - Try and keep it "squared". That was one advantage of the 30/20 cruise setting.

Descent Rate(s) - Oh, I dunno/can't remember. Nothing more than a couple of thousandFPM.

TOD/BOD times (i.e. how far from the airport) - Probably pretty close to the 3-to-1 like on the jets.

ATC issues? - DON'T let ATC fly your airplane !!

Flight Planning:
IFR vs VFR? - When I first started with EAL, VFR was 'legal' with the props. I think it still was when I went with UAL, but the Company always filed an IFR Flight Plan. Often times we'd cancel though, weather permitting.

ATC interactions - like today, or very different? - Probably a little looser back then.

- - - - -

louross -
So you retired on the 8. Where were you based at retirement? Ever bid DEN, SFO, LAX, SEA?

With the exception of my 1st year when I was based in YIP, I was at ORD until I retired. Never bid anywhere else. Almost bid SFO when we picked up the Pan Am Pacific routes on the L-1011, but 'chickened' out. Kinda wish I had now as I understand that was a great airplane.

[dave mcqueen]

I didn't start my FAA career until 1969 but I heard the stories from the old guys. The gist of it was that the enroute controllers after World War 2 up until about 1965 were very poorly paid, and along with that got very little respect from management or the aviation community in general. They worked long hours in a mentally demanding job that an outsider didn't understand with mostly no radar and World War 2 or earlier equipment. (We had radio equipment that was labeled CAA with early 40's dates stamped on them into the 1980s. Must have been good equipment, huh? ) Computers were those circular dealies that you used to calculate speeds and estimates between reporting points. Controllers used paper strips to visualize the traffic picture in their heads while, like an umpire, keeping all the rules of the air in mind in order to make decisions that didn't cause a "deal." Nobody in their right mind would want such a job and most of the people were ex-military who had been trained in the profession and transferred it over to civilian life. And despite being labeled a "grunt" they had to wear white shirts and neckties and dark pants, so as to look professional even though few people ever saw them in the control room. I hated the neckties and white shirts. Everyone - except me - chain smoked too. I was happy when we no longer had to wear ties and could wear nicer looking dress shirts, and when they finally banned smoking. Unfortunately it went too far and before I left lots of people dressed as if they were on Spring Break.

Before the Grand Canyon collision in 1956 the airlines had their own radio services that pilots made position reports to and requests to be relayed to ATC by the radio service. Little or no direct contact between pilot and controller. Oceanic control was an advisory service and not positive control. Within the US VFR on top at flight levels was okay for airlines to use.

One of the old guys I worked with told me about when Oakland Center first got its hand on some hand-me-down enroute radar equipment. The screens were small, hard on the eyes and the "picture" faded out shortly after the scan passed over a target. They called it "raw radar". The controllers were often sent to the radar site hundreds of mile from the center itself to provide radar service because microwave links were not in place to forward the radar signal to the center.

In a non-radar environment 2 or 3 airways would sometimes exist from a VOR along the same route. You will still see them on low altitude charts today. The "extra" airways had doglegs in them that diverged from the primary airway to facilitate separation from other traffic on the main airway. Using DME or reporting points an aircraft could climb or descend through the altitude of an aircraft on the main airway where they would otherwise be in conflict.

When the controllers started preliminary monitoring aircraft using radar and they knew an aircraft's flight plan would be using one of the dogleg airways, the controllers were dumbstruck when they observed that mostly the airliners didn't fly the dogleg at all, rather continued straight ahead climbing and descending through nearby traffic because they knew they were not being watched. At least until the controllers caught them in the act.

I worked VFR Air California Lockeed Electras from Lake Tahoe to San Jose in the 70s. We were told that because Air Cal (and PSA too) were Intra-state airlines that they could fly VFR unlike the trunk carriers.

Oh the stories I could tell............ except I'd likely lose my pension if I did.

[Lockheed]

Oh the stories I could tell............ except I'd likely lose my pension if I did.

Hey.....be thankful you've got one!

I was one of the few airline pilots who belonged to PATCO back when they were having their problems. I was a strong supported of them and knew full well what they were going through and what their job was like, having been in many towers and Centers and seeing it first-hand.

A pretty much thankless job, then and probably now.