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Post by jesse on Mar 4, 2011 9:26:38 GMT -5
???Ever wonder why things like this happen? For those of you that have not seen any of the Ice Pilot NWT videos; Buffalo Joe sold two of his Water Bombers to the Turkish Government. Chief pilot Arnie and his crew were training the Turks in the aircraft. One crew failed to lower the landing gear and resulted in a lot of damage to the airplane. Jesse www.patricksaviation.com/videos/Shkval/5307/
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Post by ashaman on Mar 4, 2011 10:20:03 GMT -5
Haven't seen yet the episode in object ( but will as soon as possible), and don't understand jack of French to follow the given link, but... a pilot I once knew, who in his days piloted a DC9, told me he was once landing in Cairo and only in the last nick of time, at decision height literally, the cockpit crew he was part of realized they had not deployed the landing gear, resulting in an embarrassing Go Around ( but MUCH less embarrassing than an unannounced belly landing, anyway), and culpable of it all was, by his own admission, that they had been slacking off with the checklists. May it be that? It's either that, or the pilot at fault of the tarmac keel landing in Turkey was ALL TOO USED to planes with fixed landing gear and... well, he hardly would be the first, to read some aviation stories available on the net, in falling in the habit to believe the landing gear was always down even in the new plane. PS In the end though, I reckon it's ALWAYS a misuse of the checklists that gets you that result. If you follow the checklists, this doesn't normally happen ( not with a working landing gear, anyway).
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Post by emfrat on Mar 5, 2011 18:32:00 GMT -5
In one of my aviation books, published in the 1960s, it says the FAA held the view that any aircraft requiring a long and complex checklist was ipso facto unsafe - especially in GA aircraft. I was never a pilot, but in the sim I rely on the trusty old BUMPFF* mnemonic on the downwind leg. On an ILS approach, DME10=Gear down!
ATB MikeW *Brakes,Undercarriage,Mixture,Prop,Flaps,Fuel
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Post by capflyer on Mar 5, 2011 19:04:21 GMT -5
When I worked for Air Tahoma, I learned the story of N156PA, one of their CV-240's. The aircraft had belly landed back in the 1993 in Boise, ID. www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=ANC93FA128&rpt=faTo summarize the incident, the Check Pilot occupied the right seat and had agreed to act as a "good co-pilot" during the checkride. At the time, this was a permitted practice, however it changes afterwards. The factual report I linked to (and the "probable cause") are kinda misleading because they refer to the "pilot in command", which on this flight was the CHECK PILOT (not the guy in the left seat) because the pilot in the left seat was not qualified to act as PIC at that time. BTW, as to the endorsements and such, at the time, no written endorsement to a pilot's logbook was required for a check ride to be initiated nor was any left seat training required. The simple statement of a qualified person with the company or operator (i.e. a "Chief Pilot") was sufficient. Having flown with Rom on several occasions (I have pictures on my photobucket account of one of those flights) the guy is a more than competent pilot and having talked with Kathy about the flight, I have always had misgivings about the interview statements given by the flight examiner because they just don't jive with the other statements of Kathy and Rom that the Check Pilot indicated that they were going to land and that at no time did Rom do anything to suggest otherwise, but the Check Pilot chose to "hold the gear" of his own volition and it wasn't questioned because on the CV-240, it's not really easy to actuate the gear while flying, especially with a simulated engine out condition, so the Pilot Not Flying is usually responsible for ensuring they're extended prior to landing, whether or not he is instructed to or call for a go around, neither of which occurred. Additionally, it was the PNF's responsibility to handle the radios which he obviously didn't do either, so it makes me wonder what exactly he was doing in the moments between being handed over to Tower and when the aircraft impacted.
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Post by ashaman on Mar 7, 2011 10:01:31 GMT -5
In one of my aviation books, published in the 1960s, it says the FAA held the view that any aircraft requiring a long and complex checklist was ipso facto unsafe - especially in GA aircraft. I was never a pilot, but in the sim I rely on the trusty old BUMPFF* mnemonic on the downwind leg. On an ILS approach, DME10=Gear down! ATB MikeW *Brakes,Undercarriage,Mixture,Prop,Flaps,Fuel A checklist doesn't have to be a piece of paper with on it printed a numbered sequence of actions to do to obtain a certain result. Each and every on of us goes through an automated checklist when simply entering our car and preparing to drive, for example. The problem starts when in the normal and established mind checklist you must add an item or more. Take for example the seat belts in a car. There are places like Italy where until a decade ago there was no law that said you MUST fasten them, and everyone went to their own businesses without using them ( sometimes, in pure Italian fashion, belittling those who used them as poor demented idiots, especially in places like Naples). When the law to use those strange contraptions came around you could see a lot of people at times fastening them after having started to move the car in the road ( those who did not scramble to fasten them only when seeing a road agent about to stop them, and trying to play the idiot card not to get a ticket and the loss of driving points... but this is another story)... Coming from a plane like a C172, where you must not wonder if, when and where to lower the landing gear to a plane where the gear is retractable, you MUST add to your mind checklist another item, and if in take off is quite simple to remember about it, as you would never reach the optimal performances of the plane without raising the gear... in landing it's another story altogether, and sometimes a dangerous and embarrassing one. That's why when a pilot comes from a simpler plane with a fixed landing gear, it should be a good idea to enforce a landing checklist even when the plane is not particularly complex like a GA, at least for a while. Whatever we do, always, and especially if related to machinery or any other tech item, life itself IS a checklist. The use of a washing machine, of a car, even of a TV... you cannot escape the mighty power of the checklist. You WILL be assimilated... either that or remain in the stone age, for ever.
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Mar 7, 2011 10:04:56 GMT -5
As I remember the Turkish pilots had indeed trained on fixed gear aircraft before this...
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