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Post by johnhazlet on Jul 16, 2011 10:35:33 GMT -5
Most long range overwater flying in the piston airliner days used celestial navigation. An "astrodome" -- about 18" diameter clear plexiglas dome -- was installed in the cockpit ceiling just aft of the pilot seats. The navigator (there is actually an FAA certificate for Aircraft Navigator) would stand on a stool, draw a black curtain around himself, hang his (typically Bendix Altitude Averaging) sextant from a hook in the astrodome, plug it in to operate the lights, and shoot five stars once an hour, noting the time of each sight using an accurate "hack watch" and the stopwatch on the sextant.
Time was important -- time errors of one second caused position errors of about a mile -- but at 200+ knots, knowing your position within 10 NMi or so was adequate.
Then the navigator would sit at his little table and reduce the sights using the Air Almanac and Sight Reduction Tables, refining an "assumed position" into a "known position," and advise the captain of the position and any heading change necessary.
If stars weren't visible, dead reckoning ("deducted" reckoning) was used, in combination with a drift sight which extended from the bottom of the airplane which could help determine crosswind component.
You're right -- GPS, inertial nav, etc., hadn't been invented, and LORAN, CONSOLAN, and other radio based systems weren't very reliable.
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Jul 16, 2011 12:26:50 GMT -5
Hi John,
Was this typical even in the late 50's and early 60's before jets got INS, etc.?
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Post by jimmyfingers on Apr 26, 2016 8:57:37 GMT -5
Hey gentlemen, I'm refreshing this thread because it's is a great review for me. I have designated myself the "propliner docent" when I volunteer at the Delta Flight Museum. So far, I think I am the only one who recognizes the designation, but I will keep working at :-). The excellent links and posts above provide much appreciated breadth and depth to my presentation. The other reason to refresh the thread is to ask if anyone has added a second ADF to Manfred's Connies and Super Connies for use in FSX? I've searched various places and have not found anything useful. The CC DC-6/7 panels are great, but Douglas was more generous with panel real estate than Lockheed. Thanks in advance. Jim
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Post by Defender on Apr 26, 2016 10:32:00 GMT -5
Sorry can't speak for FSX but the FS9 Connie/Super Connie has a second ADF in a separate window, shift+3, and if you click the "RMI" button" on ADF2 then the double needle on the RMI switches from VOR2 to ADF2. Does that work on FSX? Some of the Connie versions also have a VOR12/ADF12 selector switch for the RMI on the main panel.
For personal use I made up my own radio window using more contemporary style VOR and ADF selector panels from the web but you need author's permission to distribute that other work of course. Actually the default DC-3 radio panel is quite authentic, although not the prettiest.
Bill
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Apr 26, 2016 11:15:04 GMT -5
For me clicking the Radio icon on the panel brings up the extra radios. I don't see an RMI button on the 1049G ADF2 radio. I do have it on the 1049H panel but the tooltip on the RMI is confusing, since it doesn't tell me which radio is feeding it. And I assume that you cannot tune VOR1 to the RMI?
Thanks,
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Apr 26, 2016 11:32:00 GMT -5
OK, I fixed that problem for my 1049G panel by copying gauges over from the 1049H panel. Now my 1049Gs also have an RMI button and the RMI switches frequencies. Someday I'll have to fix that tooltip too.
Thanks,
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Post by awralls on Apr 26, 2016 11:35:03 GMT -5
A very good point, Tom. We often get into the habit of doing the work of the entire crew, when we really should be concentrating on being the pilot. Never understood that view; why should we? Frankly, it's pretty dull doing an 8 hour oceanic stint just waiting to be told where to go by a GPS. If you want to just be the pilot, fine, but I don't get why I should feel I'm somehow breaking a rule if i want to simulate the whole crew. You do what you want, and so will I. No offence intended... The other thing that occurs in considering this is that I've learned so much about many navigation techniques through having to by doing all that and not restricting myself to one crew viewpoint only. Andy
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Post by Defender on Apr 26, 2016 11:35:16 GMT -5
I'll try to check this out but my problem is I no longer have release versions of the radio panels installed! Yes, there were changes as Connie versions were updated.
Bill
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Apr 26, 2016 11:50:11 GMT -5
Hi, The problem is not during cruise but takeoff and landing, where the workload is too high. But I firmly believe in "each to his/her own tastes". And I often tweak panels too.
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Post by awralls on Apr 26, 2016 13:52:26 GMT -5
You can ameliorate the high workload during takeoff and landing with something like MultiCrew Experience. Voice activation was made for propliner flying during these busy periods. The only thing you can't do (yet) is call for specific rpm or MAP settings, but a lot of it can be spoken, reducing the workload to more realistic levels.
Andy
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Post by Defender on Apr 27, 2016 10:59:37 GMT -5
Just to clarify the Super Connie ADF setup, this is how it was.
The original 2009 L1049G and L1049H releases had only one ADF. So did the original Starliner.
In 2010 there was a L1049G/H upgrade which included amongst other features a second ADF in the radio window with the switchable RMI button.
The latest Starliner V.4 has ADF 1/2 plus main panel switches to allow any VOR/ADF combination on the RMI.
I think I can see where there might be confusion. There are various additional texture only downloads available in Flightsim which have links to the model download but only the original L1049G.zip and L1049H.zip releases with the single ADF. As far as I can see the 2010 G/H upgrade is now missing from Flightsim, and possibly Avsim.
Bill
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Post by jimmyfingers on Apr 27, 2016 14:57:40 GMT -5
Excellent help, gentlemen! Thanks for the guidance. I think I have the latest 1649 so I'll take a look at the panel when I get home Friday.
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Post by jimmyfingers on Apr 29, 2016 13:10:00 GMT -5
Meh, no luck. My FS9 installation is still inop so I was unable to look at the V4 airplane. Iwas not able to noodle ADF 2 from the panel config either. Oh well, I'll survive.
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Apr 29, 2016 15:01:07 GMT -5
You should be able to move it to FSX and get them there? They are in a CAB file and thus need to be extracted from there. When I start this kind of thing I do this with the CAB file whose gauges I want to update:
1. Create a folder next to the CAB file named the same thing as the cab file (without the .cab). 2. Double click the CAB file to open it, click on one file, press Ctrl A to select all the files, right click, and choose Copy. 3. Paste all these files into the new folder you just created. 4. Select the files in the other CAB file that I want to copy, right click and choose Copy. 5. Paste these into the new folder, overwriting the original files.
The files creating the updated ADF radios and RMI are:
RadioADF2.xml RMI.xml Radio_ButtonRMIOFF.bmp Radio_ButtonRMION.bmp Radio_ButtonRMIPUSHED.bmp
Hope this helps,
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Post by jimmyfingers on Apr 30, 2016 19:45:35 GMT -5
Ah, sweet, Tom. Thanks! I'll give it try. I have never messed around inside the cab files. I'll let you know!
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