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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2014 4:09:49 GMT -5
Hi,
I just had a hard discussion in FlightSim forum about adding parkings to default Afcad. It have been stated that such modifications will violate the EULA.
We all know how poor some Afcad have been created by Microsoft. Hundreds or even more have just a runway, nothing more, and are therefore absolutely unusable with AI traffic. Ohter might have some few parkings, but by far not enough to show acceptable traffic.
So what is your opinion about such a statement?
Cheers, Bernard
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Post by stansdds on Aug 23, 2014 6:29:55 GMT -5
I do it all the time. I use ADE to change stock AFCADs other people's freeware and even payware airports. If you do it only for yourself, then I see no legal ramification.
I see no harm in using the stock AFCAD, adding your own modifications, and redistributing it as freeware so long as you give proper credit to MS.
There are ramifications if you sell or redistribute as freeware anything that uses another person's AFCAD, structures, etc. without permission.
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Post by kellyb on Aug 23, 2014 6:43:51 GMT -5
As Stansdds says, so long as you are doing these mods for your own use, or for friendly and freeware distribution among fellow simmers, there is no problem. M$oft would have a long battle if they chose to take exception to what you do with your own, personal, bought-and-paid-for copy of the sim. It would be very much like saying that you could not write marginal notes to yourself in a book you purchased.
Ask whoever it was over at Flightsim to show you where in the eula M$oft thinks it can control what you do with your own sim. That person is missing out on a lot of really good modifications, like Orbx, Megascenery, and all sorts of scenery improvements if he/she truly obeys that mistaken view.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2014 6:49:14 GMT -5
Thanks. That's what I tought too.
Bernard
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Aug 23, 2014 9:03:43 GMT -5
Hi,
Yes, technically it is illegal. From the EULA:
"Limitations on Reverse Engineering, Decompilation, and Disassembly. You may not reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, except and only to the extent that such activity is expressly permitted by applicable law notwithstanding this limitation."
And about editing files, etc.:
"Editors. If the SOFTWARE PRODUCT contains a software Editor, or a software Editor is made available to you by Microsoft for use with the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, you may use the Editor only in conjunction with that content specifically identified in the documentation for use with the Editor. If no content files are identified, you may not use content or other files from the SOFTWARE PRODUCT with the Editor. You may reproduce and share files or scripts created with the Editor with friends or family on a non-commercial basis only. Microsoft does not grant you the right to sell or otherwise distribute files from the SOFTWARE PRODUCT in exchange for value."
This section suggests to me that even text files cannot be edited by Notepad and Wordpad (though supplied by MS), since MS does not specifically say that is allowed. And BGL files (which are compiled) and other such files are illegal to access, using programs like ADE, AFCAD, etc. The exceptions to that rule are the terrain editor programs supplied in the SDK, and scenery files written from scratch and compiled with BGLComp or other compiler (which is supplied by MS in the SDK). MS did NOT supply a decompiler for such BGL files, however.
That said, MS has never *enforced* that part of their EULA, and has never even complained about people uploading modified files like the language.dll. Heck, large sites like Flightsim even host such files!
So if you want to be perfectly legal, you should stick to using editors supplied in the FS SDKs, and avoid opening default files in third party editors. Instead create your new airports from scratch.
Hope this helps,
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Post by ejoiner on Aug 23, 2014 9:12:48 GMT -5
Hi, I just had a hard discussion in FlightSim forum about adding parkings to default Afcad. It have been stated that such modifications will violate the EULA. We all know how poor some Afcad have been created by Microsoft. Hundreds or even more have just a runway, nothing more, and are therefore absolutely unusable with AI traffic. Ohter might have some few parkings, but by far not enough to show acceptable traffic. So what is your opinion about such a statement? Cheers, Bernard I seriously doubt the EULA police are waiting to bust down your door in a midnight raid.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2014 9:25:47 GMT -5
Hi,
Thanks Tom for your ample explanation.
Folks, that's seems to be clear, and you are warned. Just avoid to help a forum member somewhere to get more traffic at some default airports! BTW, what about cheating consumer with misplaced objects like bridges, buildings and so on?
Cheers, Bernard
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Aug 23, 2014 9:28:07 GMT -5
The EULA also contains language that says "we sell it as is, with no warranty".
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Post by Defender on Aug 23, 2014 10:40:36 GMT -5
Nice to know that at least Tom has read the EULA!
It seems to me unlikely that MS would have a problem with any addon, improvement or editing device used for that purpose that requires the end user to have paid for a legal copy of FS9 or FSX. If anything such work will have helped to increase, not reduce M$'s sales. What might happen however is that a commercial developer gets hold of your modified bgl or bmp which is in fact still say 90% MS's work and incorporates that file or another version of it, claiming that it has no contract with MS. That might explain their bgl editing concerns but even then it's hard to see why they would object to addons or programmes that did not directly compete with their own products.
So as Tom says, best you create your own airports from scratch or use exclusions etc etc that don't involve editing the default bgl's.
Bill
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Post by kellyb on Aug 24, 2014 6:58:27 GMT -5
Hi, Yes, technically it is illegal. From the EULA: "Limitations on Reverse Engineering, Decompilation, and Disassembly. You may not reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, except and only to the extent that such activity is expressly permitted by applicable law notwithstanding this limitation." And about editing files, etc.: "Editors. If the SOFTWARE PRODUCT contains a software Editor, or a software Editor is made available to you by Microsoft for use with the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, you may use the Editor only in conjunction with that content specifically identified in the documentation for use with the Editor. If no content files are identified, you may not use content or other files from the SOFTWARE PRODUCT with the Editor. You may reproduce and share files or scripts created with the Editor with friends or family on a non-commercial basis only. Microsoft does not grant you the right to sell or otherwise distribute files from the SOFTWARE PRODUCT in exchange for value." This section suggests to me that even text files cannot be edited by Notepad and Wordpad (though supplied by MS), since MS does not specifically say that is allowed. And BGL files (which are compiled) and other such files are illegal to access, using programs like ADE, AFCAD, etc. The exceptions to that rule are the terrain editor programs supplied in the SDK, and scenery files written from scratch and compiled with BGLComp or other compiler (which is supplied by MS in the SDK). MS did NOT supply a decompiler for such BGL files, however. That said, MS has never *enforced* that part of their EULA, and has never even complained about people uploading modified files like the language.dll. Heck, large sites like Flightsim even host such files! So if you want to be perfectly legal, you should stick to using editors supplied in the FS SDKs, and avoid opening default files in third party editors. Instead create your new airports from scratch. Hope this helps, I think it's the part about "only to the extent that such activity is expressly permitted by applicable law notwithstanding this limitation." that allows us to modify our own copy exclusively for our own use or sharing as freeware among friends. No lawyer, but I'm pretty sure M$oft would have a difficult time in court battling someone who merely wanted to add a building or parking place to a favorite airport. The door was opened when they provided the sdk's. It is particularly likely that no one in M$oft actually gives a hoot in any case, so go for it, I say and let's see if they come after us after all these years ( another thing the court would probably wonder about).
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Aug 24, 2014 14:06:25 GMT -5
Just to clarify, the question wasn't if MS was going to sue you, but if it is illegal. It is illegal, but I agree you don't have to worry about MS at this point.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2014 14:27:51 GMT -5
Would the fact of renaming files be unterstood as "disassembling"? I don't think so. For me "disassemble" means "dissect", like you dissect a turkey! Renaming APxxxxxx.bgl files in Scenery folder would change everything.
Bernard
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Aug 24, 2014 19:04:16 GMT -5
No, renaming files is not disassembling or any other prohibited activity.
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Aug 24, 2014 19:46:50 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2014 1:29:04 GMT -5
Yes, after all and starkly contrasted to SimForums - awful!
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