Just wondering about this...

[beeker46]

is it possible to use a default 737 auto brake gauge in the DC-4/-6B? I got to wondering about this when I wondered if I could land a DC-6B at Roanoke, since jets land there all the time, why not a Douglas? I have used the Martin Bar numerous times to slow down on shorter runways, but would that also work with an auto brake gauge, as well?

Just wondering, is all.....

[Tom/CalClassic]

You might have to enable auto braking in the aircraft.cfg file, but otherwise it should work.

[beeker46]

Good, then I might give that a try...

Edit:
wonderful, the 'ol -6B rolled to a smooth stop without so much as a tap on the brakes from me. Set the knob to one short of max just before landing, and once the nose wheel touched down the 'brakes' message lit up and she made a nice smooth rolling slowdown. not that I am lazy, but with my diabetic feet sometimes I don't apply the toe brakes as evenly as I should and the nose tends to wander a bit as differential braking is applied unintentionally. Now, to add this to all the heavies (and a few twins) that I fly.

[Dennis the menace]

Hi,

If you are using a yoke, quite often the third lever (farthest to the right) is not really used, especially in regard to propliner aircraft set up to use the "enable automixture" setting in the aircraft's realism settings menu.

My third lever is set to spoiler axis, because I occasionally fly the Comet.

If its available, why not set it up as a brake axis, with all the way back as no brakes and all the way forward as full brakes.

It might be simpler than trying to edit every aircraft's configuration file and adding the gauge to all your panels.

Its just an idea.

Mike

[mrcapitalism]

Also I believe the freeware aircraft here (and likely the majority of FS aircraft) have full braking coded as "full normal operation braking" and not "pedal to the floor (emergency) braking" considering that the overwhelming majority of users likely don't use a brake axis and instead rely on keyboard or joystick buttons (I do, and I've never had a problem just holding down my brake key = 100% and experience normal stopping distances)

[Defender]

Interesting point about normal versus emergency braking. On Tom's aircraft I think FS Aviator has set the braking force at the maximum, IE the emergency stop level.

The aircraft's certification requires that in the event of an engine failure at or before V1, it can either reach 50' within the published required take off distance or stop within that distance, but using only systems that are proven safe and reliable. I think this is normally taken as including emergency brakes but not reverse pitch. Tom's models seem to behave that way and my guess is that the FDE was set up on this basis.

The real DC-6/7 series for example had normal hydraulic brakes plus an emergency air brake system, the red handle on the left of the panel coaming, used as the parking brake in the 2D panels. Accident accounts indicate that it was considerably more powerful than the normal system with the ability to lock the wheels.

Unfortunately FS only allows one system setting. But if just a lighter brake force is preferred then the following setting in the aircraft.cfg might be reduced but increasing it might make slow taxi and parking quite tricky.

[brakes]
toe_brakes_scale=0.36 //DC-7C version
parking_brake=1


Bill

[Defender]

Having done a bit more reading of the real world manuals, I conclude that neither Douglas or Lockheed built in any "emergency stop" device or setting. All used pedal pressure to the degree required in the circumstances. In the event of primary hydraulic failure Douglas used the air powered emergency system, Lockheed used alternative an hydraulic source.

So the toe_brakes_scale= setting mentioned above is still the setting for maximum braking force, pedals to the floor. I can't so far find anything about the Douglas emergency air brake other than that it was normally safety wired in the off position and when once used to stop a DC-7C at Luton in the UK, it burst all the tyres and so destroyed the braking action.

Bill

[Tom/CalClassic]

Hi,

My DCs use the emergency air brake lever as the parking brake lever, so at least it had some sort of braking action. Best Ken could do.

FSAviator set the toe brake scalar value so a rejected takeoff at V1 with immediate full braking takes the distance to stop as specified in FAA documents. This type of stopping often overheated the brakes (requiring brake service) and sometimes blew tires. I don’t know if that was full braking (I.e. pedals to the floor) - we have no way to know that, but it was probably close to it. We also checked that this scalar value allowed the normal minimum landing distance, of course, but that included use of prop reverse.

[Defender]

I don’t know if that was full braking (I.e. pedals to the floor) - we have no way to know that,

All the manuals warn about locking the wheels and the method seems to be intermittent pressure initially then increasingly continuous pressure as speed reduces. So it would seem that the certificated take off and landing distances are based on most likely braking profile rather than the best result. Thus FSAviator's setting probably gives an average result.

Interestingly the USAF C-118A manual mentions an anti-skid system and in fact has an extremely detailed description of the brake system and operation. But neither of my two DC-7C manuals have any mention of anti-skid, nor do the  C-118A's TO and landing distance charts make any distinction between anti-skid on or off.

Bill

[mrcapitalism]

Aug 29, 2019 9:48:48 GMT -5 Tom/CalClassic said:

FSAviator set the toe brake scalar value so a rejected takeoff at V1 with immediate full braking takes the distance to stop as specified in FAA documents. This type of stopping often overheated the brakes (requiring brake service) and sometimes blew tires. I don’t know if that was full braking (I.e. pedals to the floor) - we have no way to know that, but it was probably close to it. We also checked that this scalar value allowed the normal minimum landing distance, of course, but that included use of prop reverse.

Thanks for clarifying Tom... my statement "normal" vs. "emergency" was ambiguous and had no relation to the actual rudder pedal position (in relation to the limit of travel).

The basic point I was trying to make was that if I encounter an emergency before V1 and I must stop, I will extract maximum performance from the wheel brakes to achieve this procedure. I don't really care where the pedals are in their length of travel. It's good to know that the braking effectiveness is designed for this requirement .

When I've just made a normal landing with a plane load of passengers on a long runway you can imagine that I don't apply the same amount of braking force as above.. even if it's available. Nothing has changed in the function or design of the brake system.. it's all in how you use it. I would then consider that our propliners are set up for "emergency" braking scenario, as pressing the joystick braking button gives me "reject below V1" braking force.

FSAviator remarks,

Most MSFS aircraft are uploaded with impossibly effective ABS brakes which preclude the possibility of skidding after user mishandling of the wheel brakes. My dynamics tend to have more realistic values but do perform your cadence braking for you at a realistic cadence for expert human braking, (they have ABS before it was invented but at weak levels to match human proficiency).

calclassic.proboards.com/thread/44/ground-roll

Reverse prop pitch brings up a good point. I experience good stopping distances and assumed it was because the brakes were more "gentle," in reality I was using almost no braking during deceleration after landing, instead relying entirely on propeller reverse for the initial segment and then light (intermittent press) wheel braking to taxi speed.

Even in my most recent DC-2 practice the wing creates a large amount of aerobraking after tailwheel contact, and wheel braking is seldom used here too.

[johnhinson]

Aug 28, 2019 21:21:53 GMT -5 Dennis the menace said:

Hi,

If you are using a yoke, quite often the third lever (farthest to the right) is not really used, especially in regard to propliner aircraft set up to use the "enable automixture" setting in the aircraft's realism settings menu.

My third lever is set to spoiler axis, because I occasionally fly the Comet.

If its available, why not set it up as a brake axis, with all the way back as no brakes and all the way forward as full brakes.

It might be simpler than trying to edit every aircraft's configuration file and adding the gauge to all your panels.

Its just an idea.

Mike

I am interested in this idea because I find it difficult to brake in a straight line with pedals too.

However, how do you do this? Has anybody done so successfully? FS's settings appear to only allow assignment of left or right brake, not both. I have tried using FSUIPC's settings but the interface seems very complicated and nothing I have done appears to affect the brakes at all.

All suggestions welcome.

John

[Tom/CalClassic]

I think it would have to be done via FSUIPC or other similar program since you need to activate both brakes at the same time.

[Dennis the menace]

Another easy solution is what I used to use before I had rudder pedals. Assign the "Brakes (apply/release)" to a button on the joystick or the yoke. I used to have the little red button just in front of the view hat switch on the right hand side of the yoke applied to that, because I'm right handed. Then you can hold it down, or hold and release as you like to get the braking action you desire. If I remember correctly, you do not want to have the "repeat" checked, "repeat" will keep the brakes applied constantly until you hit the button again. You only want them applied when you press the button/trigger - this gives you more control over them.