Post by Tom/CalClassic on Aug 9, 2008 0:12:42 GMT -5
Hi,
FSAviator's suggestion for the L model is to install his KC-97G flight dynamics (from my Stratocruiser page) and ignore the jets.
**************
It is apparent from your post that you have read the supplied handling notes. I repeat some elements here so that readers can follow the techniques required. Tankers are interesting, but demanding, to operate. This post attempts to explain all the relevant issues.
<<I installed a panel that is supposed to convert it to an L model but I don't think it's working correctly.>>
Flight Dynamics and panels are not mix and match. You may have installed random engine drag and perhaps other errors. So called 'replacement panels' that do not disclose which flight dynamics are required to drive their gauges are a high risk, and usually a poor choice. At best you are likely to have imposed random drag when mixing and matching 'replacement panels' (actually their random gauge code) with FD that make no attempt to drive that gauge code. Replacement panels developed by regular posters here will probably work OK, but you should seek advice about that here too. It may depend when they were developed and for which version of MSFS.
Failure to use the supplied and current correctly matched files from the master source, which is the only place that updates and fixes are hosted, is a persistent problem. Mixed and matched files from different sources, uploaded on random dates and with random or out of date file content are a big problem. Everyone should download and install the latest FD and panel/gauge updates from Calclassic.com at least once every six months since they do not always declare a change of version number, or date of last update/fix.
Many MSFS users allow very old (often FS8 ) files from random download locations to overwrite the only ones that will work
correctly in FS9.
Why even try to convert to a model of tanker for which you have neither flight dynamics nor handling notes?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
[fuel]
max fuel 9190 USG=55140lbs @ 6.0lbs/USG
Center1=0,0,0,9190,0 ;including the underwing tanks = AVGAS
LeftMain=0,-20,0,2917,0 ;transfer fuel = AVTUR
RightMain=0,20,0,2917,0 ;transfer fuel = AVTUR
fuel_type=1.000000
number_of_tank_selectors=1
electric_pump=1
[WEIGHT_AND_BALANCE]
;load assumed symetrical versus CoG
reference_datum_position=0.000000,0.000000,0.000000
empty_weight_CG_position=0.000000,0.000000,0.000000
empty_weight=82860 ;including oil
station_load.0= "2000,0,0,0, 10 Crew & Equip."
max_gross_weight=175000
175000 - 55140 usable fuel - 2000 crew with kit = 117860 - 82860 empty = 35000 lbs of transfer fuel = 5834 USG
Default ramp weight is 175,000lbs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<<This thing is REALLY touchy to get off the ground and there is absolutely no way to accellerate to get the flaps up at a reasonable altitude unless takeoff power is used for like 8 minutes or so. And that's at a sea level departure. If I restrict T.O. power to 5 minutes or less I usually wind up mushing back into the ground. >>
It sounds as though you are using FS8 flight dynamics inside FS9. Re-install *every file* from the FS9 FD update for the KC-97G from;
www.calclassic.com/b377.htm
and install the correct (B377 Statocruiser) panel with the correct gauge code from the same source.
After that you should be able to repeat the test results below.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
COWL FLAPS - CLOSED
TRIM 20% full range NOSE UP
FLAP - STAGE 1
ROTATE at 130 KIAS (175,000lbs)
Establish positive climb rate
GEAR UP
ACCELERATE 170 KIAS @ <= 200 VSI
MINIMUM 500 feet AGL
CALL for Military Power
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
With the correct and current FS9 Calclassic code running, in ISA and nil wind SL conditions;
Time from brake release to 130 KIAS on the runway is about 60 seconds.
Acceleration from 130 KIAS to 170 KIAS at 175,000lbs with FLAP 1 deployed is just over 90 seconds in TOGA power at + 200 VSI.
Throttle up to TOGA is just before brake release so it takes 2.5 to 3 minutes to achieve 170 KIAS, when it is safe to select MIL power. You will be around 500 QFE and should await 500 QFE if earlier. Gently retard any propensity to sink and trim for + 100 VSI after selection of MIL power. The objective is still acceleration not climb!
The 5 minute TOGA limit allowed by the USAF is generous and supports much worse than ISA + SL + nil wind conditions, but with progressively longer times to achieve 170 KIAS. However VSI targeting is critical at these weights.
300 VSI is 50% too much!
You must not depart fully loaded tankers into rising terrain and these cold war military operations are not IFR operations in compliance with IFR safety criteria. Runway altitude has little effect on power available using these engines, but each target IAS is a higher TAS and acceleration to
any IAS target consequently takes longer at higher altitudes.
Upon selection of MIL power, climbing at 100 VSI acceleration to 180 KIAS occurs within one minute. FLAP is then retracted. You will be around 600 QFE and in ISA and nil wind you should be clean, climbing at 180 KIAS, within four minutes of throttle up. At these weights MIL power is retained for (up to) 30 minutes. During that clean and MIL power phase of the flight you can comply with IFR departure safety criteria. VSI achieved at 180 KIAS depends on the weather but in ISA will yield around 750 VSI for as long as you need it for obstacle clearance in an extended IFR departure, and will take you to medium towline level within the 30 minute limit, if you are not stopped off by ATC.
When you don't need MIL any more retard to climb power. That normal climb phase is not compatible with IFR safety criteria. Allow VSI to reduce climbing at 180 KIAS at low level reducing to 175 KIAS at medium levels. You will typically be tasked to a medium level towline (FL160/170) after a 175K departure. Set 2100 RPM and adjust MAP to sustain 180 KIAS in the towline. Continue to fly the extended holding pattern until bored. The only interesting part of tanker simulation in MSFS is the demanding departure.
Don't attempt to fly the less powerful KC-97E until you have mastered the more powerful and easier KC-97G which had to be developed due to the deficiencies of the E. You should master the C-97A before attempting the KC-97G.
From the supplied 'Read before flight.txt';
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The C-97A and C-97C Boeing 367 Stratofreighters are in effect underweight B377 Stratocruisers with less powerful (R-4360-35A) engines. The same techniques apply. Power settings to be applied are explained in the on screen handling notes (F10 key). When flown as a freighter or during base transfer treat the KC-97E as a C-97C. There was no C-97B. I have not provided a flight model for the VC-97D flying command post.
Do not climb the C-97 above FL250.
The KC-97E has its own flight model when flown as a tanker. The (R-4360-35C) engines lack a dry military rating, and climb will be slow. The power settings available and the variations on the B377 climb / operational ceiling techniques are set out in the on screen handling notes. Note especially that sustained climb at medium and high level will be a cruise climb at 100 ft/min as Operational Air Traffic (OAT) rather than 500 ft/min under IFR/GAT. The KC-97E is lighter than the later tankers and does not have the underwing tanks of the KC-97G.
The KC-97F and KC-97G have much more powerful (R-4360-59B) engines with a dry military rating, but they operate at much higher weights. The operating techniques are different but are fully explained in the on screen handling notes. The ability to climb above a level which you can sustain is still a problem, but at higher power settings all round. The KC-97F did not have the underwing tanks of the KC-97G, but in effect it just carried more AVTUR and less AVGAS at the same weight when tasked for the same mission. The relevant aircraft.cfg explains how to remove the drag of the underwing tanks from the F.
Ensure that you can fly a long haul mission in the Stratofreighter or the Stratocruiser before attempting to fly one of the tankers. The KC-97E is particularly demanding when flown in accordance with the original R-4360-35C engine restrictions, though not as demanding as a B-50D with a full bomb load.
Tankers may climb above FL250 using the power settings in the on screen handling notes, if the aircraft ever becomes light enough to do so. Obviously the highest power settings cannot be achieved at high altitude. If you cannot apply the manifold pressure called for in the handling notes apply full throttle, but remember to throttle back when you descend!
Due to limitations of MSFS the transfer fuel (AVTUR) is in the left and right wing tanks, whilst the usable fuel (AVGAS) is in the centre (cabin) tank. It is the other way round in real life. When the handling notes call for you to transfer or dump the transfer fuel use the pull down aircraft/fuel menu to remove all the fuel from the left and right (AVTUR) tanks. MSFS cannot simulate aircraft with hybrid power so there is no flight model for the jet augmented tankers.
FSAviator.
FSAviator's suggestion for the L model is to install his KC-97G flight dynamics (from my Stratocruiser page) and ignore the jets.
**************
It is apparent from your post that you have read the supplied handling notes. I repeat some elements here so that readers can follow the techniques required. Tankers are interesting, but demanding, to operate. This post attempts to explain all the relevant issues.
<<I installed a panel that is supposed to convert it to an L model but I don't think it's working correctly.>>
Flight Dynamics and panels are not mix and match. You may have installed random engine drag and perhaps other errors. So called 'replacement panels' that do not disclose which flight dynamics are required to drive their gauges are a high risk, and usually a poor choice. At best you are likely to have imposed random drag when mixing and matching 'replacement panels' (actually their random gauge code) with FD that make no attempt to drive that gauge code. Replacement panels developed by regular posters here will probably work OK, but you should seek advice about that here too. It may depend when they were developed and for which version of MSFS.
Failure to use the supplied and current correctly matched files from the master source, which is the only place that updates and fixes are hosted, is a persistent problem. Mixed and matched files from different sources, uploaded on random dates and with random or out of date file content are a big problem. Everyone should download and install the latest FD and panel/gauge updates from Calclassic.com at least once every six months since they do not always declare a change of version number, or date of last update/fix.
Many MSFS users allow very old (often FS8 ) files from random download locations to overwrite the only ones that will work
correctly in FS9.
Why even try to convert to a model of tanker for which you have neither flight dynamics nor handling notes?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
[fuel]
max fuel 9190 USG=55140lbs @ 6.0lbs/USG
Center1=0,0,0,9190,0 ;including the underwing tanks = AVGAS
LeftMain=0,-20,0,2917,0 ;transfer fuel = AVTUR
RightMain=0,20,0,2917,0 ;transfer fuel = AVTUR
fuel_type=1.000000
number_of_tank_selectors=1
electric_pump=1
[WEIGHT_AND_BALANCE]
;load assumed symetrical versus CoG
reference_datum_position=0.000000,0.000000,0.000000
empty_weight_CG_position=0.000000,0.000000,0.000000
empty_weight=82860 ;including oil
station_load.0= "2000,0,0,0, 10 Crew & Equip."
max_gross_weight=175000
175000 - 55140 usable fuel - 2000 crew with kit = 117860 - 82860 empty = 35000 lbs of transfer fuel = 5834 USG
Default ramp weight is 175,000lbs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<<This thing is REALLY touchy to get off the ground and there is absolutely no way to accellerate to get the flaps up at a reasonable altitude unless takeoff power is used for like 8 minutes or so. And that's at a sea level departure. If I restrict T.O. power to 5 minutes or less I usually wind up mushing back into the ground. >>
It sounds as though you are using FS8 flight dynamics inside FS9. Re-install *every file* from the FS9 FD update for the KC-97G from;
www.calclassic.com/b377.htm
and install the correct (B377 Statocruiser) panel with the correct gauge code from the same source.
After that you should be able to repeat the test results below.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
COWL FLAPS - CLOSED
TRIM 20% full range NOSE UP
FLAP - STAGE 1
ROTATE at 130 KIAS (175,000lbs)
Establish positive climb rate
GEAR UP
ACCELERATE 170 KIAS @ <= 200 VSI
MINIMUM 500 feet AGL
CALL for Military Power
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
With the correct and current FS9 Calclassic code running, in ISA and nil wind SL conditions;
Time from brake release to 130 KIAS on the runway is about 60 seconds.
Acceleration from 130 KIAS to 170 KIAS at 175,000lbs with FLAP 1 deployed is just over 90 seconds in TOGA power at + 200 VSI.
Throttle up to TOGA is just before brake release so it takes 2.5 to 3 minutes to achieve 170 KIAS, when it is safe to select MIL power. You will be around 500 QFE and should await 500 QFE if earlier. Gently retard any propensity to sink and trim for + 100 VSI after selection of MIL power. The objective is still acceleration not climb!
The 5 minute TOGA limit allowed by the USAF is generous and supports much worse than ISA + SL + nil wind conditions, but with progressively longer times to achieve 170 KIAS. However VSI targeting is critical at these weights.
300 VSI is 50% too much!
You must not depart fully loaded tankers into rising terrain and these cold war military operations are not IFR operations in compliance with IFR safety criteria. Runway altitude has little effect on power available using these engines, but each target IAS is a higher TAS and acceleration to
any IAS target consequently takes longer at higher altitudes.
Upon selection of MIL power, climbing at 100 VSI acceleration to 180 KIAS occurs within one minute. FLAP is then retracted. You will be around 600 QFE and in ISA and nil wind you should be clean, climbing at 180 KIAS, within four minutes of throttle up. At these weights MIL power is retained for (up to) 30 minutes. During that clean and MIL power phase of the flight you can comply with IFR departure safety criteria. VSI achieved at 180 KIAS depends on the weather but in ISA will yield around 750 VSI for as long as you need it for obstacle clearance in an extended IFR departure, and will take you to medium towline level within the 30 minute limit, if you are not stopped off by ATC.
When you don't need MIL any more retard to climb power. That normal climb phase is not compatible with IFR safety criteria. Allow VSI to reduce climbing at 180 KIAS at low level reducing to 175 KIAS at medium levels. You will typically be tasked to a medium level towline (FL160/170) after a 175K departure. Set 2100 RPM and adjust MAP to sustain 180 KIAS in the towline. Continue to fly the extended holding pattern until bored. The only interesting part of tanker simulation in MSFS is the demanding departure.
Don't attempt to fly the less powerful KC-97E until you have mastered the more powerful and easier KC-97G which had to be developed due to the deficiencies of the E. You should master the C-97A before attempting the KC-97G.
From the supplied 'Read before flight.txt';
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The C-97A and C-97C Boeing 367 Stratofreighters are in effect underweight B377 Stratocruisers with less powerful (R-4360-35A) engines. The same techniques apply. Power settings to be applied are explained in the on screen handling notes (F10 key). When flown as a freighter or during base transfer treat the KC-97E as a C-97C. There was no C-97B. I have not provided a flight model for the VC-97D flying command post.
Do not climb the C-97 above FL250.
The KC-97E has its own flight model when flown as a tanker. The (R-4360-35C) engines lack a dry military rating, and climb will be slow. The power settings available and the variations on the B377 climb / operational ceiling techniques are set out in the on screen handling notes. Note especially that sustained climb at medium and high level will be a cruise climb at 100 ft/min as Operational Air Traffic (OAT) rather than 500 ft/min under IFR/GAT. The KC-97E is lighter than the later tankers and does not have the underwing tanks of the KC-97G.
The KC-97F and KC-97G have much more powerful (R-4360-59B) engines with a dry military rating, but they operate at much higher weights. The operating techniques are different but are fully explained in the on screen handling notes. The ability to climb above a level which you can sustain is still a problem, but at higher power settings all round. The KC-97F did not have the underwing tanks of the KC-97G, but in effect it just carried more AVTUR and less AVGAS at the same weight when tasked for the same mission. The relevant aircraft.cfg explains how to remove the drag of the underwing tanks from the F.
Ensure that you can fly a long haul mission in the Stratofreighter or the Stratocruiser before attempting to fly one of the tankers. The KC-97E is particularly demanding when flown in accordance with the original R-4360-35C engine restrictions, though not as demanding as a B-50D with a full bomb load.
Tankers may climb above FL250 using the power settings in the on screen handling notes, if the aircraft ever becomes light enough to do so. Obviously the highest power settings cannot be achieved at high altitude. If you cannot apply the manifold pressure called for in the handling notes apply full throttle, but remember to throttle back when you descend!
Due to limitations of MSFS the transfer fuel (AVTUR) is in the left and right wing tanks, whilst the usable fuel (AVGAS) is in the centre (cabin) tank. It is the other way round in real life. When the handling notes call for you to transfer or dump the transfer fuel use the pull down aircraft/fuel menu to remove all the fuel from the left and right (AVTUR) tanks. MSFS cannot simulate aircraft with hybrid power so there is no flight model for the jet augmented tankers.
FSAviator.