Runway Lengths

[hermankreimes]

Hello;

I have downloaded and installed most of the CalClassic 1960's airport sceneries.

With regards to the 1963 Paris Orly airport, I noticed that on the map view, the longest runway was 7866 ft.
I am questioning this figure because I would think that by 1963 there would have been an extension to accommodate intercontinental jetliners which would not be able to use such a short runway for takeoff.

All the other major world airports ie. London, LA,San Francisco, all had runways of 9000ft. plus.

Cheers; Herman

[garryrussell]

Hi Herman

Length listed here in December 1963

www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1963/1963%20-%202162.html

Garry

[hermankreimes]

Hello Garry;

Thank you very much for that info. I was just a bit curious , if the length of the runway in FS using the calclassic 1963 Orly is indeed only 7866ft. a takeoff with a large propliner would not be a problem but it could be a bit short for a heavy 707-320.

Cheers; Herman

[capflyer]

Herman,

I would have to look again, but I wonder if 7866 is what's available for landing (i.e. displaced threshold). This is not unusual. If you look at JFK today, you see that situation where you have 2 runways of well over 14,000 feet in length, but much of it is not usable for landing, only for takeoff.

[hermankreimes]

Hello capflyer;

Thanks for your input.

I checked out the runway thresholds and none are recessed. There are a few abnormalities in the FS map section with regards to the individual runways.

You need to soom in of course to see these. For example, according to the airport data, rwy 02\20 is 7866ft. in lenght, however, on the map diagram it appears to be shorter than rwy. 08\26 which is shown to be 6882ft long.
Regardless of which is correct, 7866ft is still too short and as Garry's information shows, in 1963 the longest runway at Orly was just over 10,000ft long.

I did attempt a takeoff on 02\20 with a 707-320 at 270,000lbs. and did get airborne about 500ft before the end of the runway. Not something you would want to do in the real world.

Cheers; Herman

PS. Tom; is there any chance of an update on this airport scenery.

[Tom/CalClassic]

Hi,

I don't know, Harry Biard did that scenery so he would have to update it. Back then we didn't know about the flightglobal source for runway lengths, so we had to guess as best we could from photos, etc.

It would probably be relatively easy for you to open the airport in AFCAD and extend that runway?

[hermankreimes]

OK Tom; thanks. I will give that a try.

I think when Harry designed that scenery he had propliners only in mind. Since I also use your 1962 AI traffic package, I see a lot of jetliners landing and departing Orly. In addition to me flying your wonderfull propliners, I also use the HJG jetliners, and as any good pilot knows, it is of great importance to check available runway length before takeoff....even in FS.

Cheers; Herman

[Defender]

Herman,

As Tom says, the amount of available historic information increases all the time and I don't think the Flight Global archive was known to us until quite recently. It shows in fact that 8/26 was formally reopened in Dec 1959. I have a 1965 chart which shows that the extended length was probably 10,892', width 150', the extra length all being at the eastern end.

Bill

[hermankreimes]

Hello Bill;

Thank you for your input, and of course I understand that airport detail are sometimes difficult to obtain.

Tom had suggusted that I could probably easily extend the runway by " opening the airport in AFCAD" however, I really don't have a clue what to look for or how this is done.

Herman

[Tom/CalClassic]

Hi,

If you've never used AFCAD before, then it is probably a little ambitious to try extending a runway. But the procedure is:

1. Open the airport in AFCAD 2.21. It will probably be listed at the top of the airport listing.
2. Double click the runway (not the black line down the center) and lengthen it to the required length.
3. Drag the runway so the west end is where it used to be (i.e. we are only lengthening the east end).
4. Select all the nodes at the old end of the runway (i.e. now somewhere in the middle) using Shift Click and Shift-drag them to the new end of the runway. This should include the parallel taxiway nodes, if any.
5. Press the S key to see the Start Locations. Drag the one at the old end of the runway to the new end. Press S to remove them from the display.
6. Press the A key and see if that end of the runway has an ILS. If so, there would be a long green feather on the *opposite end* of the runway, and (if it has glideslope) a small green arrow around the touchdown point of the old end of the runway. If so, drag that small green arrow to the new touchdown point.

Save the file, and you should have an airport with a lengthened runway when you restart FS.

Hope this helps,

[hermankreimes]

Hello Tom;

Thank you for outlining the procedure. I have just downloaded AFCAD 2.21. so I will give it go.

HermaN

[Harry]

Hello Herman,

Let me tell you my part of the story.

I just changed the existing afcad AF2_LFPO_CA59.BGL, which you will find in Addon Scenery\CalClassic Core\scenery, but I did not change the runway lengths, because as Tom said: "We didn't know about the flightglobal source for runway lengths, so we had to guess as best we could from photos, etc."
But I'm glad you will give it a try and want to change the afcad.
If you have changed it, will you send it to me?

Kindly regards

Harry

[hermankreimes]

Hello Harry;

Providing that I am successfull, I would gladly send it to you. It may take a bit of time though,since I am still feeling my way around.

Herman

Herman

[johnl]

Herman,
when you change the runway length, you should (imho) also move any VASI or PAPI lights. Assuming the runway length has increased by 4010' (10892'-6882'), the distances quoted for the VASI or PAPI lights should both be increased by 2005'.

[Tom/CalClassic]

Hi,

Yep, that's one I missed. I often forget it...