Modernizing the DC-3 flight deck (1950+)

[Bjoern]

As you know, the default DC-3 in FS9/X (and therefor my FSX enhanced model) comes in its late 1930s flight deck flavor.

To make the aircraft more IFR capable, I want to modernize the instruments, radios and autopilot into a configuration appropriate for the 1950s and onward, but it's a bit hard to get inspiration from photos across the web since DC-3 panel configuration possibilities stretch from here to beyond.


Do you guys have any recommendations?

And when did radios with LED displays find their way into general aviation? The early 1970s?
Just want to make sure that I keep things fairly consistent.

[Jorge]

Not sure if it's "realistic" as such, but I like the Norman Hancock panel package from DC3 Airways. Nice looking, neatly organized, and it comes in various "versions" from gyro to HSI.

Regards,

Jorge

[blockwood]

Here is a link to a more modern DC-3 cockpit.

c8.alamy.com/comp/GWP322/dda-classic-flights-douglas-dc-3-flightdeck-over-the-netherlands-GWP322.jpg

[Bjoern]

Since I thought that they found their way into DC-3s sooner or later anyway, I've begun to put in Ken's DC-6 gauges. Some needed adapting to the DC-3's performance (MAP, airspeed), but most surprisingly fit quite well. Went for an "all up" config, including VOR receivers, but this can just as easily be reverted to an ADF only configuration. Due to three instruments doing the job of a modern one (RMI, GS indicator, OBS gauge), the panel is just as cluttered as the one on a DC-6.

Will post a pic once I've adapted the fuel gauges and found a suitable autopilot and radio.

Sept 8, 2017 15:57:44 GMT -5 Jorge said:

Not sure if it's "realistic" as such, but I like the Norman Hancock panel package from DC3 Airways. Nice looking, neatly organized, and it comes in various "versions" from gyro to HSI.

That's one option I was looking at as well, but mostly for the LFRR gauges.

[PeteHam]

In about another month or so we'll be having a DC-3 doing regular scenic flight ops out of my local airfield here.

I can get you some cockpit photos if you like.

Pete.

[Bjoern]

Sept 9, 2017 14:31:44 GMT -5 PeteHam said:

In about another month or so we'll be having a DC-3 doing regular scenic flight ops out of my local airfield here.

I can get you some cockpit photos if you like.

The cockpit gauges will most likely be up to current spec in that one and that's not really what I'm looking for. Thanks for the offer though.

[Deleted]

Sept 8, 2017 9:59:51 GMT -5 Bjoern said:

As you know, the default DC-3 in FS9/X (and therefor my FSX enhanced model) comes in its late 1930s flight deck flavor.

To make the aircraft more IFR capable, I want to modernize the instruments, radios and autopilot into a configuration appropriate for the 1950s and onward, but it's a bit hard to get inspiration from photos across the web since DC-3 panel configuration possibilities stretch from here to beyond.

Do you guys have any recommendations?

And when did radios with LED displays find their way into general aviation? The early 1970s?
Just want to make sure that I keep things fairly consistent.

Bjoern - From my experience with the real aeroplane here in OZ modernisation was pretty limited even into the 1980's, the reason was some areas such as the autopilot required major modification of the flight control system, most if not all airlines and operator sin Australia simply kept the Sperry until they retired the aircraft (generally from about 1970) onwards. The major additions were a more up to date ILS/VOR, a DME (generally the older analogue or needle type display) and solid state radios. I never saw a DC-3 or C-47 in Australia with LED radio display they were all like the radios fitted into the lates iteration of Jahn's C-47. No weather radar or GPS either. As there was no layout mandated for instruments they tended to be put where ever they could be fitted for some reason making a new panel was not considered worth the effort either. The attached image is of a Trans Australian Airlines DC-3 in about 1969. I had modified the FSX panel some time ago to look like this but I ditched it all when the Jahn versions came out so I can not help you further there.

Attachments:

[Bjoern]

Thanks for the input, Mike. I kind of figured that the Sperry wouldn't be replaced that easily, figuring that the Dak was mostly hand flown anyway.
The clutter on modernized panels is well replicated on mine so far.


I'm still stumped regarding the radios. There's a freeware King Silver Crown radio set out there, but it's geared toward smaller GA aircraft and doesn't feature an ADF2 receiver or standby frequencies. Therefor, I'm not sure if it's appropriate for the larger DC-3.

[Bjoern]

I think I have something. Found the radio gauges used in the Connie and they fit the bill.


Main panel. All gauges except for the Sperry swapped out for ones at propliner standard. Even if it was unlikely to see those back when the DC-3s were still hauling bum for major carriers, I figure that sooner or later they found their way into them. Some gauges were adapted to the DC-3, such as airspeed MAP, fuel and hydraulic indicators. Note that only the captain gets VOR indicators while the FO has to make do with ADF.



The radio panel on the overhead. Everything fun is there, including a DME indicator and timer. To plug up the ugly hole on the underlying polygon, I whipped up a quick bitmap. This poses a problem, since...



...I just can't get it to dim at night with the panel lights on, no matter which flag (luminous, bright) I set in the gauge file. But this will be corrected once I have access to the model source files again.





Regarding permissions for publishing:
1) Tom, since you're managing Ken's panels and gauges, I figure that proper credit is enough to include the gauges?
2) Bernie was asked over in the Cv-340 thread.
3) Does anybody know the Connie team's stance on distributing gauges? I've pulled the radios from Dutch's DC-3 mod and he only gave credit. In case of doubt, that's what I'll do, too.

[Tom/CalClassic]

Hi,

Yes, that's fine with me. I don't know the Connie team's position since I've never borrowed any of their gauges.

[connieguy]

It might be an idea to ask the Connie team something else as well. There is something about their gauges that is unusual. When I tried to get Multicrew Experience to work with the Connies some time ago it simply wouldn't connect, and their support said they had never experienced anything like it. Also, when importing other gauges into the Connie panels I have sometimes but not always (the Ken Mitchell gauges are fine) found that they have caused problems. It is just possible that this might work in reverse, and that their gauges in other panels will cause issues too. Bill Tyne (Defender) is one of their team and will be able to advise.

[Defender]

Hi,

Nearly all the Connie gauges are the work of Hansjoerg Naegele and copyright and yes he would need to be consulted.

Best to get in touch with Manfred Jahn. I think he also supplied the gauges for Manfred's C-47.

Bill

[Deleted]

Bjoern, not sure if this puts some perspective on things but re radios etc in this era, it was a regulatory thing more so than availability of the equipment. It depended on what the aeroplane was used for, so if passenger airline ops they needed at least 1 ILS, 1 VOR and 2 ADF's, autopilot was not required if 2 crew aeroplane. Generally there were at least 2 VHF radios and in Australia always a HF radio set. The basic reasoning for this was having one that would work and one for standby but more importantly at the planning stage if you did not have dual setups you had to allow for alternates which started to bite into the fuel you could carry etc. The radio gear in the DC3/C-47 used to be carried in a rack rear of the pilots in or near the cargo compartment there, the arrival of solid state gear meant the old valve radios and their weight were given the heave ho and replaced with solid state boxes, saving a bit of room also. Generally it was Bendix-King or Collins and occasionally Narco. DME was a much later arrival and for awhile there were two different types, one called international and one domestic they operated on completely different frequencies, International frequencies eventually won out and the domestic stuff was ditched. Until the early filament number displays arrived they used a needle gauge dial for either which would just indicate distance but no speed or time, digital readouts came much later in the late 1970s'and early 1980's. Autopilots were always a major drama, because of the different control systems used, cable and pulleys, hydraulic actuators etc. A servo or actuator had to be used to take the autopilot signals and translate this into a movement of the relevant control surface, so really up until more modern airliners and systems arrived they were all basically two axis unit controlling pitch and roll-yaw via the elevator and rudders only and generally they operated via the trim tabs not the actual major control surface. They were crude but did the job and were used for the cruise mode mostly and were useless in any sort of weather where the inputs would get behind the aircraft motion or movements so you ended up disconnecting them and hand flying anyway.

This explains why the DC-3/C-47's around the world are so different, they fitted the bare minimum needed and avoided more modern gear because it was always a mismatch with the electrical system etc. We also forget that radio gear then was very very expensive to buy and fit. I can remember a certain time where for about three years I never flew an ILS or rarely used a VOR but all my flying was using the NDB or ADF only because that was all there was, you got very proficient at NDB approaches after a while. RMI's and good quality ADF units were generally preferred and the ADF's fitted to modern aircraft post about 1980 are toys by comparison.

[Bjoern]

Sept 11, 2017 3:19:15 GMT -5 connieguy said:

It might be an idea to ask the Connie team something else as well. There is something about their gauges that is unusual. When I tried to get Multicrew Experience to work with the Connies some time ago it simply wouldn't connect, and their support said they had never experienced anything like it. Also, when importing other gauges into the Connie panels I have sometimes but not always (the Ken Mitchell gauges are fine) found that they have caused problems. It is just possible that this might work in reverse, and that their gauges in other panels will cause issues too. Bill Tyne (Defender) is one of their team and will be able to advise.

As far as I've read, the Connie features some pretty extensive systems coding, which more often than not blocks standard interactions with MSFS for other applications. If, e.g. the battery switch is entirely controlled by some gauge logic in the Connie panels, an external application like MCE can't control it.
Same applies to the gauges in general. If, e.g. the MAP gauge is driven by some custom gauge logic instead of standard variables, you will need both the gauge and another gauge containing said logic to make it work in another panel.
I've checked the radio gauges as I've installed them and they don't use any custom gauge logic at all.

Sept 11, 2017 5:10:58 GMT -5 Defender said:

Nearly all the Connie gauges are the work of Hansjoerg Naegele and copyright and yes he would need to be consulted.

Best to get in touch with Manfred Jahn. I think he also supplied the gauges for Manfred's C-47.

As far as I know, Hans Joerg is out of the game, so yes, getting in touch with Manfred is the best thing to do.

Sept 11, 2017 5:48:51 GMT -5 @mikeh said:

Bjoern, not sure if this puts some perspective on things but re radios etc in this era, it was a regulatory thing more so than availability of the equipment. It depended on what the aeroplane was used for, so if passenger airline ops they needed at least 1 ILS, 1 VOR and 2 ADF's, autopilot was not required if 2 crew aeroplane. Generally there were at least 2 VHF radios and in Australia always a HF radio set. The basic reasoning for this was having one that would work and one for standby but more importantly at the planning stage if you did not have dual setups you had to allow for alternates which started to bite into the fuel you could carry etc. The radio gear in the DC3/C-47 used to be carried in a rack rear of the pilots in or near the cargo compartment there, the arrival of solid state gear meant the old valve radios and their weight were given the heave ho and replaced with solid state boxes, saving a bit of room also. Generally it was Bendix-King or Collins and occasionally Narco. DME was a much later arrival and for awhile there were two different types, one called international and one domestic they operated on completely different frequencies, International frequencies eventually won out and the domestic stuff was ditched. Until the early filament number displays arrived they used a needle gauge dial for either which would just indicate distance but no speed or time, digital readouts came much later in the late 1970s'and early 1980's. Autopilots were always a major drama, because of the different control systems used, cable and pulleys, hydraulic actuators etc. A servo or actuator had to be used to take the autopilot signals and translate this into a movement of the relevant control surface, so really up until more modern airliners and systems arrived they were all basically two axis unit controlling pitch and roll-yaw via the elevator and rudders only and generally they operated via the trim tabs not the actual major control surface. They were crude but did the job and were used for the cruise mode mostly and were useless in any sort of weather where the inputs would get behind the aircraft motion or movements so you ended up disconnecting them and hand flying anyway.

This explains why the DC-3/C-47's around the world are so different, they fitted the bare minimum needed and avoided more modern gear because it was always a mismatch with the electrical system etc. We also forget that radio gear then was very very expensive to buy and fit. I can remember a certain time where for about three years I never flew an ILS or rarely used a VOR but all my flying was using the NDB or ADF only because that was all there was, you got very proficient at NDB approaches after a while. RMI's and good quality ADF units were generally preferred and the ADF's fitted to modern aircraft post about 1980 are toys by comparison.

Brilliant piece of information, thank you!

From my all-up setup, it's a rather small step back to a more bare bone operation. Remove the VOR radios, DME and transponders and just leave in the rest.



And look, I even found a DC-3 deluxe model, with weather radar and Sperry A-12(courtesy of its former operator, the FAA):


Just proves that, whatever configuration you can dream of for a virtual DC-3, probably existed in reality.

[Deleted]

"Just proves that, whatever configuration you can dream of for a virtual DC-3, probably existed in reality." Yep and very deep pockets to pay for it all.

I noticed the ILS/VOR on either side of the radar set in the FAA cockpt, I actually found that particular gauge in a panel some time ago and it works very well, it was standard fit into a lot of airlines from the late 50's and 60's. If you want to use it let me know. The gauge came with a FSX release of a reworked C-54 (originally by JBK) but with a modernised cockpit, I cannot find which one at the moment when I do I will let you know. Cheers