MSFS/XP12 for Vintage Simulation

[jacklyon]

Hi All people of Calclassic Forum

i comme back to the read the forum after several, months. It's true that i look at it less often.

I appreciate A LOT, all the work done here to convert FS91 on a "time machine" .

i done also (with the help of a wonderfull team), some add-ons to this collection. (Lyon, Buenos Aires, Colonia, Bordeaux)

Late years, i'm not using really FS91..., i spent my time between MSFS, and X-Plane 12, trying to developpe, some thing

to both simulators. (SDK for X-Plane 12 (World-Editor, Blender and for MSFS (SDK and Blender)) are really powerfull and friendly

I'm not uninstall FS91 and P3D45, but the true is i'm not using a lot.


Lately, with the "Local Legend" from MSFS, and with some great aircrafts made for X-Plane, i realize, that both simulateurs,

could be, a great opportunity, to make new "vintage scenerys".

Specially considering, seaplanes.

My current projects, are not "vintage", but i probably do in a near future, some "vintage" sceneries (or aircrafts)

Even if calclassic.com is not support yet, MSFS and X-Plane, i think, will be interesting to people that use that simulators

of this forum, to know, if some new "vintage material", arrive, to MSFS (or X-Plane)


Best regards to all.

PS: i think, that there are less people on this forum, precisely, because, MSFS and XP12 are to very good simulator,
(with clear rules, not as Lockheed Martin), to allow, people to create content, and use the simulator, in a
entertaiment way or for simulation.

Tom, maybe, if you think about, open the site (or at least the forum), to XP12, and MSFS, the people with join us at
calclassic, will start growing up again. As i look in flightsim.to (for example), some great airports "vintage". And
with the MSFS a lot more people are doing things, because MSFS SDK it's really open.

Examples:

Croydon:

flightsim.to/file/28993/recreation-of-croydon-airport-london-now-closed-1930-s-1940-s-representation.

Barnes:

flightsim.to/file/48393/barnes-airport-moroc-calif

Semi-Fictional:

flightsim.to/file/51205/kmsu-michigan-state-university-landing-strip-historical-fictional

Midway:

flightsim.to/file/25349/ww2-naval-air-station-midway-circa-1942

And for X-Plane a great one:

xpfr.org/?body=scene_accueil&sc=181


Cheers.

[Jorge]

I saw some of this a while back, and it looks great!

I won't have the chance to experience any of this any time soon due to the hardware requirements of these new sims, but for those that have newer computers (within the last 5 years or so) it may be an option. Right now I can barely run FSX (CD or SE), which is why I'm sticking with FS9 until my computer dies and I can't sim anymore.

I still look around and there are some very interesting projects, indeed. The one thing I like about FS9 over FSX, however, is the fact all the elemants needed for changing the world are compartmentalized. In other words, you have one bgl set for bridges, another for roads, another for airports, another for airport backing, etc.

This allows for the removal of a certain type of element in order to have a "blank piece of paper" for you to make your own world of airports, etc. In FSX, everything related to the world is lumped into one file. Generally it's a CVX type if I'm not mistaken.

I'm not sure what format or how these newer sims use the scenery information, but this website seems promising:

Red Wing's Payware Project - 1935

It's payware, but it gives an idea how this may look if possible to make.

I would love to be able to run X-Plane 12 since it looks more "user-friendly" as far as design, but - again - don't have the hardware and can't afford newer stuff anytime soon. I can't even run X-Plane 9 which is no longer supported by any of the major X-Plane sites due to it's age, and I've had it for years because I thought I could run it!

Another thing I'm not too keen on with the newer stuff is that the maps are based on "real world" data. If that means it updates as you fly along, then it's a moot point to try and make scenery due to the memory requirements of making a "whole new world" for you to fly in.

Still, I'm glad some people are trying to recreate this era and I'm hoping they are successful. It may give me another reason to try and save up more money for a new rig.

Regards,

Jorge
Miami, FL

[Deleted]

Salut Alejandro, nice to hear from you again!

I follow the approach of a vintage era in MSFS continuously and with great curiosity.,As Jorge mentioned, even vintage addons are still playing out in the current and ultra-modern world. I doubt if there will ever be a slimmed down version suitable for such an era. At least, that's the advantage of the old fashioned FS9. Very old goes fits old! It's not a question of the eternally yesterday, but simply a fact.

Furthemore I can't imagine that interest in a vintage MSFS world being any less than with FS9 and here or on other sites now. Until MSFS can even remotely offer the variety of Golden Wings and others, much time will pass. Having just some vintage aircraft flying over a globalized world wouldn't by far be enough to abandon what has be done up to now for FS9. What vintage era concerns, of course.

Cheers and good luck

Bernard 

[Tom/CalClassic]

Hi again,

Nice to hear from you again. My forum welcomes posts about FS2020 and XPlane. We are not limited to FS9 at all.

However, I do not have a computer capable of running either one so I will not be developing for those sims since I cannot test anything and I obviously can’t fly in them.

But that doesn’t mean others can’t. 😁

Take care,

[jacklyon]

May 31, 2023 6:10:15 GMT -5 Jorge said:

I saw some of this a while back, and it looks great!

I won't have the chance to experience any of this any time soon due to the hardware requirements of these new sims, but for those that have newer computers (within the last 5 years or so) it may be an option. Right now I can barely run FSX (CD or SE), which is why I'm sticking with FS9 until my computer dies and I can't sim anymore.

I still look around and there are some very interesting projects, indeed. The one thing I like about FS9 over FSX, however, is the fact all the elemants needed for changing the world are compartmentalized. In other words, you have one bgl set for bridges, another for roads, another for airports, another for airport backing, etc.

This allows for the removal of a certain type of element in order to have a "blank piece of paper" for you to make your own world of airports, etc. In FSX, everything related to the world is lumped into one file. Generally it's a CVX type if I'm not mistaken.

I'm not sure what format or how these newer sims use the scenery information, but this website seems promising:

Red Wing's Payware Project - 1935

It's payware, but it gives an idea how this may look if possible to make.

I would love to be able to run X-Plane 12 since it looks more "user-friendly" as far as design, but - again - don't have the hardware and can't afford newer stuff anytime soon. I can't even run X-Plane 9 which is no longer supported by any of the major X-Plane sites due to it's age, and I've had it for years because I thought I could run it!

Another thing I'm not too keen on with the newer stuff is that the maps are based on "real world" data. If that means it updates as you fly along, then it's a moot point to try and make scenery due to the memory requirements of making a "whole new world" for you to fly in.

Still, I'm glad some people are trying to recreate this era and I'm hoping they are successful. It may give me another reason to try and save up more money for a new rig.

Regards,

Jorge
Miami, FL

Hi Jorge,

yes redwing are doing some nice thing for "vintage", (in the MSFS market are only aircraft), but he got also the project
to make Lyon and other place in France , but sadly, all he did until now is payware (and they are not "cheap", for example
por the Constellation, they ask about 35 euros, where all vintage aircraft, from Asobo MSFS are in 15 euros.

They just released a Farman, and it's wonderfull, but still overprices.

Win42, release the Boeing 247, and the Bleriot

And, MSFS free, release, a lot of old aircrafts, (H4 Hercules, DC3, Goose, Jenny, Sprit of Saint Luis, Wright Flyer, etc)





for the part "real world data", and all that, i will answer below, because Bernard and Tom talked about that also.

and it's not exactly, last version of SDK of MSFS (and also the one from X-Plane), allow to modify a lot more and a lot more
easy the land than, with SDK of FS91, FSX or P3D.

[jacklyon]

May 31, 2023 7:55:37 GMT -5 @goldenrocket said:

Salut Alejandro, nice to hear from you again!

I follow the approach of a vintage era in MSFS continuously and with great curiosity.,As Jorge mentioned, even vintage addons are still playing out in the current and ultra-modern world. I doubt if there will ever be a slimmed down version suitable for such an era. At least, that's the advantage of the old fashioned FS9. Very old goes fits old! It's not a question of the eternally yesterday, but simply a fact.

Furthemore I can't imagine that interest in a vintage MSFS world being any less than with FS9 and here or on other sites now. Until MSFS can even remotely offer the variety of Golden Wings and others, much time will pass. Having just some vintage aircraft flying over a globalized world wouldn't by far be enough to abandon what has be done up to now for FS9. What vintage era concerns, of course.

Cheers and good luck

Bernard 

Hi Bernard !

MSFS collection of vintage things, is growning really really fast, for the moment, it's true,
the collection on FS91 and FSX/P3D is huge, but, MSFS i think will grow and grow, because the
developers community (payware/freeware) is huge.

[jacklyon]

May 31, 2023 9:35:41 GMT -5 Tom/CalClassic said:

Hi again,

Nice to hear from you again. My forum welcomes posts about FS2020 and XPlane. We are not limited to FS9 at all.

However, I do not have a computer capable of running either one so I will not be developing for those sims since I cannot test anything and I obviously can’t fly in them.

But that doesn’t mean others can’t. 😁

Take care,

Hi Tom, ok, is good to know, i will speak of some "vintage" items, and news, from MSFS and XP world from time to time

also, i will share news for my future vintage developments. (probably i will start doing only free_vintage_libraries)

but, i will finish to do probably, some old airfields. (maybe more in the 1930-1960 than after)

(right now, i am learning some complex (for me) things on Blender, and trying to have a workflow, that allow me, to
make a model "universal", that i can convert after to MSFS or XP12, with MCX or with both plugins blender for MSFS and
X-Plane)


Just one important information:

If you computer can run Prepar3D V4.5 smoothly, then they can run without problems MSFS
(MSFS is less heavy than P3Ds or even FSX)

i not change at all my computer, and it's run perfectly MSFS (not with all cursors at max, but almost)

For XP12, this is less true sadly, i needed to make more tuning, to make it work well, (if i activate photoreal ground)
but now run it's is very correct also.

(I'm not have a super powerfull computer: (Intel 4790K (from 2015), 32 gigas of RAM (but MSFS run ok with 8 gigas)

and my graphics cards, it's a Nvidia 1660 TI...

[jacklyon]

I will write, later, a list of thing, we can do "easily" with SDK Scenery tools (MSFS), or with World Editor,

Think that are a lot more complex to do on P3D/FSX or FS91.


Both Sims, got scenery editors that work at "what you see is what you get", for MSFS the Scenery Tools, are IN the simulateur,
for X-Plane, World Editor is not part of the simulator, what is really powerfull (and there are things that are really
easy and quick to do on X-Plane SDK)

After that, for the moment, i know more on MSFS SDK that on XP SDK. (but that will change!)


PS: The only thinkg it's still WIP on MSFS, is a Traffic Tool, we can't create AI Traffic easy, for the moment.

On X-Plane 12, i don't know, but XP12 sadly in my computer, if i activate air traffic, i can't use it,


In my opinion:

For Vintage sceneries, i think, at 31 mai 2023, MSFS is more interesting, because, on MSFS, we got automatically
grass 3D, and others things, that on XP12, not are yet available.

For doing vintage aircrafts, boths simulators are OK.

For doing "vintage traffic", it's not yet possible, or not easy, or we loose too much frames if we activate on most computers.

PS:

Henrik and his team, is doing, a WONDERFULL, AI SHIP TRAFFIC PACK for MSFS, that contain A LOT of classic ships.

(more on this later)

To finish (for today )

Some of the great vintage aircraft that MSFS make (at 14.90 dollars each),

Junkers...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZI6dZnhPHY


www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibA9xLZWiNY

Lockheed..

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cZkYgwKjZg

Wall

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYsx1XZB7f4

and in june!!!!! Latecoere 631

www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AYyw9VJaJ4

[Jorge]

That would be great, Alejandro! It would at least give us an "inside look" at the workings of the SDK for MSFS for those of us with older equipment that can't run the newer stuff. I would be interested in how it would be possible to create a "retro" land class and various other things.

For FS9, I've been making "landclass maps" with GIMP, then processing them through SBuilder9. It takes a while to get the hang of it, but once you know what you're doing it's fairly easy to get what you're looking for. The main thing for me is trying to get something "geo-referenced" to get the coordinates correct. Since it's landclass, it's not too important, but you want to try and get somewhat close -- even if it is a square km.

I've also gotten a working setup of FS9 where I don't have ANY of the default navaids, fixes, airports, airport flattens, or airport backgrounds. I still have the airspaces in general since you can't really get rid of those or the sim crashes, but you don't necessarily need to talk to anyone.

By installing a clean FS9, patching, then installing GW3 (with certain caveats), then updated graphics and textures per the video on youtube from 2019, then removing the files you don't need, then adding a single VOR (I put mine in Antarctica to keep it out of the way), you can get a fairly "1930's-ish" representation.

One thing I would like to do sometime down the road is to put together a manual explaining the procedure. I made a "beta" PDF which I posted over at SOH. I can post it here if anyone is interested in giving it a shot, but it's just going to be the instructions to get the thing "empty" to get your clean slate. You would have to add airports and traffic on your own, and those airports would be the only airports in the sim. I can tell you that the load times are almost instantaneous!

I also want to get a chance to arrange my basic files in some sort of order so I can create a type of "Vintage SDK" that people can use to make their own airports, navaids, etc. Folks would follow the manual to make their own setup of the sim, then make their own scenery to make the sim even more "retrosedido," as we say in Spanish.

I haven't updated the pics in some time, but these are some shots of the "one-man-show" I had going on as of late last year before things got too busy at home:

Platinum Wings Album

I made some text explinations in the pictures to give people an idea of what was going on. Too many authors to contact to try and see if permissions can be granted for "full" distro, so many of the airfields may have to be generic representations using the "cookie-cutter" system I developed. Basically an xml "pre-layout" that gets loaded into ADE for customization, but fully capable of just being processed directly with the FS9 SDK compiler using a "bat" file or command-line functions.

For terrain I use the SBuilder9 program with maps of the era I've been able to find. I've used these both for terrain as well as landclass, though the lanclass is a bit more involved since you have to recolor the thing and then re-georeference it, load, etc.

Most of the process is xml based, however. I've made the generic airport layouts, object layouts, and even managed to get simple airspace "circles" to function properly at some fields. I also have some segments of "Amber 7" on the US East Coast by using the RR4 scenery as "fixes" for the Victor airway.

Again, it takes time and I'd like to make sure things are stable before getting too many people interested or involved, which is why I've been keeping on the down-low with a lot of this. Maybe I should try to contact some of the authors like Kenny Fox and Cees Donker sooner rather than later so it's not something I would have to do down the road. Unfortunately, every time something seems to be moving forward, something happens and everything comes to a halt again. Kind of the same thing that happened with me and LORAN and HFDF until now.

We'll see.

Regards,

Jorge
Miami, FL

PS: I don't want to hijack this thread, so any interest in the FS9 version PLEASE post in another thread. I just realized this, so my appologies, Alejandro. I just wanted to let you know of how things were done by me in FS9, and why I'm interested to see how they're done in the later versions!

[jacklyon]

WOW jorge, wonderfull work!

yes, i will put a thread, to explain my "workflow", (until now), to convert scenerys from FS91 to MSFS.

Yes I also use Sbuilder9 and SbuilderX, (not more needed on MSFS, we can do all that with SDK in "live" on the project
with the simulator, on, and after finish, build the pack)

Landclasses is the same

in MSFS SDK

we create a "polygon", and we can said "is water", or "exclude water", we can dire "is a forest with this density of trees"
we can indicate if it is a desert, a grass, a concret.

we can even "terraforming", that is, we can do (in live! WYSYWYG), create mesh on our scenery, with the same polygon, or
we can duplicate 3 times (the same polygon, to make one as exclude, the other as landclass, the other as mesh, etc)


more on the separated thread

[Jorge]

Jun 1, 2023 5:16:51 GMT -5 jacklyon said:

WOW jorge, wonderfull work!

yes, i will put a thread, to explain my "workflow", (until now), to convert scenerys from FS91 to MSFS.

Yes I also use Sbuilder9 and SbuilderX, (not more needed on MSFS, we can do all that with SDK in "live" on the project
with the simulator, on, and after finish, build the pack)

Landclasses is the same

in MSFS SDK

we create a "polygon", and we can said "is water", or "exclude water", we can dire "is a forest with this density of trees"
we can indicate if it is a desert, a grass, a concret.

we can even "terraforming", that is, we can do (in live! WYSYWYG), create mesh on our scenery, with the same polygon, or
we can duplicate 3 times (the same polygon, to make one as exclude, the other as landclass, the other as mesh, etc)


more on the separated thread

WOW! LIVE as you go! The closest thing we have in FS9 is the LWM Viewer that lets you change landclass as WYSIWYG, but I've never really used it since I found out how to use the LC maps in SBuilder9. That lets you do things for large areas, not just small areas.

Jorge
Miami, FL