Approach Failure in Flight Simulator

[haddock]

Hi!

Take a look to the pictures. Picture #1 looks funny as a kind of airplane sex, but seriously: Is there a fix for this ATC failure, or did we have to live with it? Not the first time I saw something like this...







Greetings
Haddock

[Randy_Cain]

Hi,

Yeah, well.... We were originally hoping that the ATC system would be one of the major improvements in FSX. Maybe next time...

[haddock]

Hi Randy,

ok, understand. Thx 4 info.

Greetings
Haddock

[Tom/CalClassic]

Hi,

The problem is when there are more than about 3 aircraft in the approach queue. MS only allowed for a few aircraft approaching an airport at one time, and with our increased AI traffic they pile up. There are some programs available that can help (AI Smooth, AI Separation) if you accept their quirks.

Hope this helps,

[ashaman]

Apr 3, 2010 9:34:43 GMT -5 Randy_Cain said:

Yeah, well.... We were originally hoping that the ATC system would be one of the major improvements in FSX...

...and instead, in place of working on their code where it really was weak and kept together with duct tape, they chose to transform a budding good simulator in a bad caricature of a game.

That's M$ for you.

Apr 3, 2010 9:34:43 GMT -5 Randy_Cain said:

Maybe next time...

...if you believe in reincarnation.

[sunny9850]

We get it Ash...you don't like FSX. Doesn't really contribute to the question at hand though.

As for that...if you are like me Haddock you may have multiple Traffic files accumulated in your simulator. I actually had similar double decker approaches because I forgot to remove an older Traffic.bgl created by my VAs scenery guru when I installed his latest Yellowknife package.

Since both were calling for the same routes and departure times the airplanes of course arrived at the destination at almost identical times with the same visual result that you have shown here.

Might be worth looking into...otherwise Tom is probably right that only adding Ai-smooth or similar will correct that, but there are issues there as well

Stefan

[haddock]

Hi Stefan,

ok, it could be an explanation why the airplanes arrives at the same time near the airport. But than it should be the order of the ATC to handle a correct approach to every of the airplanes. So the failure must be in the AI of the ATC, or I'm wrong?


Greetings
Haddock

[Tom Test]

I think we sometimes presume a relationship between ATC and AI in Flight Simulator that simply does not exist. The default AI engine controls the AI aircraft. The default ATC engine provides some resemblance of an ATC experience for the live user, but it does not control AI traffic, nor does it really provide separation for everything that might be going on.

At best, ATC is reporting what the AI traffic is doing, in terms that make us think ATC is controlling traffic. At it's worst, ATC fails to report an AI that impacts our flight, or gives us instructions that conflict with what AI is doing (like clearance to land on the opposite end of the runway from what AI is using).

[sunny9850]

Apr 4, 2010 12:10:43 GMT -5 haddock said:

Hi Stefan,

ok, it could be an explanation why the airplanes arrives at the same time near the airport. But than it should be the order of the ATC to handle a correct approach to every of the airplanes. So the failure must be in the AI of the ATC, or I'm wrong?


Greetings
Haddock

No you are not wrong but as Tom Test correctly points out we can't expect too much from the digital ATC ;D
In real life they would of course need to sort out who is where and how fast/slow and orchestrate an arrival sequence that more or less works for everyone.
If you want to see that done in action I recommend a visit to KCMA Camarillo on a Saturday at about 1100-1300. Typically you will have airplanes on both left and right downwind for the rwy25 and a few coming straight in to make it interesting.

Real ATC can ask you to do all sorts of things that the simulated one can't such as flying a certain speed, 360s or S turns.

So in the Sim we basically need to schedule the flights to arrive in a workable sequence. But even then it will still occasionally result in situations such as what is shown in these pictures.

Stefan

[haddock]

Hi Stefan,

thx 4 explanation. After a typically missed approach to KLAX 25R due to late descent clearance from ATC I have made the last flights only VFR and it seems to be the better way. You can start your descent when you need it and there is no annoying and mostly useless radio communication with the ATC. Only stupid thing is the missing weather informations on some destination airports so you have to wait until the tower is tell you the actually runway for landing.

I was reading a lot in the tutorials so I'm now trying to handle the SuperG as most realistic as I can do and as I willing to do: Flight planning, fuel planing, realistic weather, saving the engines and not the fuel and so on. Sure there are lots of things missing in my knowledge because I didn't have a pilot license. But since I have found your community I have made a great step forward "operating" an (classic) airplane and I have to say: It is a great pleasure.

So thx for your help and patience.

Greetings
Haddock

[sunny9850]

Sometimes cancelling IFR is indeed the best option.

I typically don't wait for ATC to give descent instructions. I plan my flight profile more or less according to the Propliner Tutorial and when I arrive at my BOD fix I ask ATC for a lower altitude. From that point on I descent with the usual 700ft/min rate and normally slow the airplane down a little just before getting to BOD.
ATC might still blabber on a bit about expediting the descent but I simply tell them to stuff it so to speak.

Usually you can work the system so that you do not have to fly a Stukka approach in a L-1049 that way, but sometimes you may still need to throw in a holding pattern to allow for a easier letdown.

As for getting the airport info you simply need to use what you would in the real world as well. ATIS or ASOS either for the actual destination or the closest one to it.
LAX certainly has the equipment so you don't have a problem there. But if you wanted to land at an airport that doesn't have automated weather services you need to know what is close by that does. This way you get the local winds and so on at the surface.

If the winds at Airport A are reported as 240 @ 7 and you are landing at Airport B, a few miles away you can pretty much expect to find the same winds there (at least in the sim) and base your runway decision on that.

Stefan

[haddock]

Hi!

You are right in both things and I was making it in this way, too.

Asking ATC for a less altitude was same I was doing but then I was in approach to KLAX from the east so I decided to wait for ATC clearence. It was like a Stuka dive with 205 KIAS at TMO so I was another half hour in holding to make the next attempt after canceling the first approach. That was last time I used IFR with a propliner, I swear.

Yesterday I was flying to Dakar (GOOY) trying to get weather informations but this in an area there isn't any ATIS availlabe. In real life you can ask the tower for weather infos I assumed but in the simm you didn't have this option. That's is what I mean. It's sad.

Greetings
Haddock

[Tom/CalClassic]

Hi,

You can always open the airport in AFCAD and create an ATIS frequency with the name GOOY. Save the new BGL file in Addon Scenery/scenery. Then you can get the weather.

Hope this helps,

[haddock]

Hi!

Apr 11, 2010 19:59:24 GMT -5 Tom/CalClassic said:

You can always open the airport in AFCAD and create an ATIS frequency with the name GOOY. Save the new BGL file in Addon Scenery/scenery. Then you can get the weather.

Ok, this would be an option for an airport you are flying to very often. But too much work for airports which you are visiting only once during a trip. And it has a little smell of cheating on my mind. I think I prefer the thrill to wait and see what will happens on an approach to an airport like this and what I have to do to manage the situation.

Greetings
Haddock