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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Apr 14, 2023 15:15:48 GMT -5
I'm starting a new thread so I don't hijack Ken's thread on his trip across the Atlantic. I've moved this post over here. Here is how the LORAN gauge works. If anyone is interested in it and Jorge agrees it could be released as a beta version, with hopefully more coverage later. It currently has land stations on the US east coast and the Aleutian Islands, but more could be added if someone wants to do the coding. No coding experience required. www.calclassic.com/LORAN_Tutorial/How_to_Use_the_LORAN_Gauge.htmlI currently have it installed in my DC-7 panel, it's a simple popup subpanel. |
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Apr 14, 2023 17:00:20 GMT -5
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Post by connieguy on Apr 15, 2023 4:54:33 GMT -5
Many thanks, Tom. I have only just seen this, but would of course be very keen to try it.
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Post by blockwood on Apr 15, 2023 8:07:40 GMT -5
I would love to try this gauge. It would be of great use in my propliners and some of my military aircraft.
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Post by Defender on Apr 15, 2023 8:48:46 GMT -5
Hi Tom,
I do transatlantic crossings now and again and could use this gauge, plus give beta feedback if needed. Like the polar path compass it may not be used that often but would still be a valuable contribution to classic era flights.
One thing you might clarify. You say that your present system is based on that 1950 map but then you add that you used a 1954 Atlantic map for gauge development. Will the present version if and when released work for the eastern Atlantic?
Thanks
Bill
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Apr 15, 2023 9:11:12 GMT -5
OK, I’ll see what can be done.
The gauge does not care about the era involved, that would all depend on the stations programmed into the code. It could eventually have stations from many eras and you would pick the correct ones. There is a station currently coded (Sandy Hook, CT) that did not come on line until 1957, so that shouldn’t be used earlier than that. There is enough information available to include almost all of the stations ever used.
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Apr 15, 2023 9:25:19 GMT -5
As for the dates used, we actually got the current station info from several sources. The 1950 map was used to pick the Aleutian stations included, as well as most of the east coast stations except for Sandy Hook. The LORAN History site was used for detailed station pair, lat and long information. And finally the 1954 Atlantic chart was used to enter the microsecond delay values for the station pairs included (i.e not Sandy Hook - not in service yet).
That station and the Aleutians use generic delay values that still work fine as long as you don’t try to use a real chart to get your position. If a chart is available and the delay values are coded into the gauge from that you can actually use the chart to get your position and ignore the lat long values the gauge provides (not super accurate, but will get you in range of local navaids). Usable charts are rare though.
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Post by Jorge on Apr 15, 2023 15:35:21 GMT -5
Tom, I just sent you an e-mail. I'm fine with anything that's been done to improve the LORAN gauge and get it out there With regards to "long range navigation" as a whole, I also sent you a simple version of the AMDF gauge that's based on the "Weatherships" gauge from FSX. The original FSX gauge was used to recreate the China Clipper flights on youtube in FSX. I can't remember who it was that flew them, but they actually did the whole trip from Alameda to Manila using the FSX gauge as well as an Excel spreadsheet that did fuel and navigation calculations. The author of the original "Weatherships" gauge gave me permisison to modify it for FS9, but since the original one was getting into some issues on my end I figured on just doing a simple one. Here's a picture:  jrn-1_01 by Jorge Rechani, on Flickr The original FSX gauge had a few "LORAN" stations, so you can say this was the "inspiration" that got us to making the LORAN gauge in the first place. Thanks for the interest in this and sorry I've been out for quite a while. Lot's of things that were more important going on for a while now. We'll see how active I can be. Jorge Miami, FL |
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Post by mrcapitalism on Apr 15, 2023 16:16:03 GMT -5
What about choosing two different representative years, and including some means by which to switch them out? Either a file swap, a hidden switch, or something different?
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Apr 15, 2023 18:47:29 GMT -5
The locations are hard coded in the gauge, so there would need to be two versions. There could always be two folders in the Gauge folder - LORAN 1950 and LORAN 1960, for example. I probably won't be doing the extra coding for that, though. I am adding the rest of the East Coast chain into Canada and Greenland, and will probably add the West Coast and Hawaiian chains as well. Other than that I will leave any extra coding to others.
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Post by Jorge on Apr 15, 2023 19:09:21 GMT -5
What about choosing two different representative years, and including some means by which to switch them out? Either a file swap, a hidden switch, or something different? Tom's correct. You would need something along those lines he mentioned, but that would mean "recoding" the radio gauge to get the required information from the correct folder. What could probably be more simple is making some sort of "book" or PDF you can use based on the years represented. All the information will be in the gauge "database" already, so all you would have to do is pick out the correct "active" stations from the "book" based on the year you're flying in. All that would be done in "pre-flight" planning stage when you're figuring out the flight plan. You could have one PDF for 1950 and one for 1960, for example. There are a few add-ons or gauges/modules out there that are free and allow you to open PDF's in the sim which would allow you to read them in flight if you needed them for reference after your flight planning. There's one I use which Ken pointed me to a while back which I believe is called, "PDF Kneeboard," or something similar. It's a module like FSUIPC which allows you to read PDF's in-sim. Once Tom is done (barring any more issues on my end) I can see about making a book/manual in PDF that can be used as a station reference. I've seen many navigation books in my time flying for real, so it wouldn't be (I hope) too difficult to recreate something along those lines with a vintage "feel" in a PDF file. Thoughts? Jorge Miami, FL |
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Post by mrcapitalism on Apr 15, 2023 19:46:49 GMT -5
I'm just thinking about Tom's observation that certain radio stations moved over the years (AKA, two radio stations in different locations - at different times - shared the same station ID and/or channel). The purpose of my proposal is to avoid having interference, or having to use fake names/ID to differentiate the same station twice.
I'd suggest having the gauge reference an .ini file, so that if anybody wanted, they could modify the station database with more stations as they wanted. I'm sure that's not easy.
If duplicate stations are not a problem, then I think the easiest answer is to include all known stations in the .gau, and letting the user decide which pairs are accurate (or to disregard that accuracy.)
Let me know what you guys think.
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Apr 15, 2023 20:12:55 GMT -5
XML gauges cannot use an ini file, so that is not practical. There also appears to be a problem dealing with getting string data from remote gauges, I have never gotten them to work. Thus since the gauge displays the place names, those (at least) need to be in the main gauge display file. The rest of the station data is indeed in a separate gauge file.
So I think we will have to be happy with the gauge being exactly accurate in only one era, and we'll have to fudge the other years so they don't conflict. There aren't too many, luckily. I propose 1954 as the base year, since the excellent North Atlantic chart available online is for that year. I haven't found any other charts that are truly usable and without a chart some fudging will never be noticed in normal use.
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Post by connieguy on Apr 16, 2023 2:42:59 GMT -5
The kneeboard pdf utility to which Jorge refers is here: www.flightsim.com/files/file/128618-fs2004-pdfkneeboard/I could produce the pdf maps if it would help. On other matters, I am happy to have this utiility in whatever form Tom thinks it best to issue it. It must be one of the most remarkable things ever produced by Cal Classic, and that is saying a very great deal. |
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Apr 16, 2023 15:26:32 GMT -5
Wow, thanks.  The idea I'm thinking about is to use this 1954 station map to determine the stations that will be included. I think we might be able to handle duplicate station names by testing your plane's longitude and choosing the correct station pair. This will allow use of the online 1954 North Atlantic LORAN chart to determine your lat and lon. Just a caveat though, the delay values that the gauge calculates are close to real values on the chart, but not nearly as accurate as the real system. But it should get you within local navaid reception distance. www.loran-history.info/research/loran_a/coverage_charts/1954_loran-a_coverage_chart_wm_large.jpg |
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