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Post by Col7777 on Aug 21, 2008 4:38:34 GMT -5
Just been on Avsim and downloaded a lot of military flightplans (our John Hinson was involved with some of them), plus a few afcads, this should keep me busy for a while.
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Post by Col7777 on Aug 21, 2008 7:07:43 GMT -5
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Aug 21, 2008 9:46:11 GMT -5
Hi,
Saw a few Lynden birds when I was up at Anchorage. There are usually a couple at PANC. Their hangar is on the other side of the runways from the main terminal, along with ERA Aviation.
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Post by Adrian Wainer on Aug 21, 2008 10:40:12 GMT -5
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Post by Col7777 on Aug 21, 2008 13:30:52 GMT -5
I downloaded a few of Henry Tomkiewicz's ai C-130's, I made a flight plan and the aircraft didn't show, I tried various things and still no show. I deleted it, tried another, that didn't show either, just by chance I checked the traffic options and I had the GA un-selected, I selected it and looked again and there was the C-130. Is there a way to make it not a GA type aircraft?
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Aug 21, 2008 14:10:49 GMT -5
Hi,
You have to have ATC call it by the airline and flight number, rather than by the reg number. You specify that in the flight plan.
Hope this helps,
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Post by herkpilot on Aug 21, 2008 23:36:47 GMT -5
A few comments on C-130 operations, although I didn't start flying hercs until the 70's, the basic mission types and operations hadn't changed much from the late 50's although with the exception of Pope AFB, the home bases have long been closed.
While MATS first C-130 was a 62 "E" model ( many of which have only recently gone to boneyard), TAC had been flying A and B models (visually identical to E model without the external tank) through out the 50's. They did a lot of 'trash hauling" (point to point) but never on a scheduled basis (at least in the CONUS). A typical mission might leave the home base in the middle of the night for a dawn arrival at another military airfield for onload (1-2 hours on ground), depart for the offload airfield, unload and return home, in essence a charter type operation. The crew day was limited to 16 hours but that that allows a lot of radius of action. CONUS squadrons did deploy to Europe for three month periods and flew regular scheduled airlift throughout the theater. Usually there were two 16 aircraft squadrons deployed to USAFE continuously for logistic support. Originally they were based in France, later at RAF Mildenhall, UK and Rhine Main AB, GE
When not deployed, low level, tactical training routes around the home bases were flown almost daily (nightly also). These were usually a one hour route at 500 ft agl to the local drop zone. Pope AFB NC (Ft Bragg), Sewart AFB TN ( the school house) and Forbes AFB KS would have had lots of activity during the late 50's to early 60s. Three ship formations were the norm although six and nine ship were flown as well. After a tragic accident that killed several paratroopers after exiting the aircraft, formations abandoned the classic "finger tip formation" and flew 15 seconds in trail, offset left and right of the lead aircraft. (I think this might be doable in AI)
Hope this answers some of the questions raised earlier.
Hy
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Post by Col7777 on Aug 22, 2008 1:42:31 GMT -5
Thanks Herky,
Funny you mention Mildenhall here in the UK, I had a dear friend who was in the USAF stationed there, he was also stationed at Lakenheath for a period too.
I did manage to get some flight plans for the C-130's some CONUS ones were included, but your information is great.
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Aug 22, 2008 16:08:13 GMT -5
Hi,
A reply from FSAviator:
Different historians have defined the classic era of commercial aviation differently. Some consider the classic era to have given way to the modern era with the introduction of turbofan engines to commercial airline service, citing February 1964 when the Boeing 727 entered service with Eastern Air Lines. However other historians consider the modern era of commercial aviation to date only from introduction of high bypass turbofan engines in the Boeing 747 during 1970. As I explain in the propliner tutorial it really depended on the command and control infrastructure with which airlines had to comply. Even in California the move to en route radar control, backed up by IBM 9020 flight plan data processing post dated the initial introduction of the Hercules to airline service. Calcalssic has anyway long acknowledged the Convair 580 as a 'classic propliner'. As an airliner the CV-580 postdates the Boeing 727. The CV-580 did not enter airline service with Frontier until June 1964. There can be no question that the L382 Hercules is a classic prop. The C-130A began to haul cargo and troops from early 1957. The Douglas C-124 Globemaster is also a classic prop but not a classic airliner. The only question is therefore whether the L382 was also a classic era commercial propliner. Unless the cut off date is B727 deployment my answer would be yes. The first L382 made its airline debut whilst leased to the U.S> owned and Miami based Aerovias Sud Americana in March 1965, just ten months after the airline debut of the CV58 with Frontier. ASA hoped to replace their three L-1649A Starliner freighters with L382 Hercules, but ASA were almost insolvent by the time the first L382 arrived. They went under in May. However the earliest L382 routes were from Miami to El Salvador, Honduras, British Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama, Colombia, Ecuador and Peru. After service with Delta and Flying W Airways in the late classic era that first L382 passed to the Philippine Air Force in 1973. They still seem be operating it forty three years later!. Military transports often have low utilisation rates compared to airline assets. The L382, also known as the L100, next entered truly commercial service with Alaska Airlines later in 1965 flying Seattle - Anchorage - Fairbanks - Sagwon. By the end of 1969 over two dozen were hauling cargo for at least eight different airlines and several others that had been in airline service had already crashed. Early L382 airline operations were mostly associated with Alaska and the oil companies who were opening up oil exploration and extraction on the 'north slope'. Alaska Airlines deployed four on the route above. Interior Airways, based in Fairbanks, soon operated more L382s than Alaska and by the end of 1969 Interior had become the largest commercial Hercules operator flying seven high frequency Fairbanks - Sagwon, but also offering them for charter from Fairbanks to anywhere in Alaska. One of these broke up in mid air in 1974. Other Alaska based airlines would introduce the L382, but only after the classic era. During 1965 Lockheed were also supplying L382s to Continental Air Services, a wholly owned subsidiary of Continental Airlines, Theoretically under contract to the U.S. Agency for International Development CAS were possibly working for other U.S. government agency offices in Bangkok, Vientiane and Saigon. It is not clear how many Hercules in civilian markings they operated from those locations. I believe their L382 Hercules collected cargo, and probably passengers, from Tokyo and Manila and delivered them to the points above. One of their Hercules was sold to the Zambian government in 1966 and operated in the livery of Zambian Air Cargoes, who thus became the first export customer. They mostly flew a government cargo shuttle Ndola - Dar Es Salaam. ZAC then purchased two more directly. Two were destroyed when they collided on the ground at Ndola in 1968. The third was sold to the the U.S. Department of the Interior in 1969 and they subsequently leased it to Interior Airways. The L382 lacked the range to be an ideal freighter for long hauling to Vietnam, but it was ideal for replacing longer ranged aircraft on internal Logair contracts so that they could join the Vietnam airlift. The U.S. government was soon offering large subsidies to airlines willing to purchase turbine freighters provided they used them on Logair contracts. By the late sixties Delta Air Lines had no prop planes left in their fleet, but the subsidies on offer were such that they decided to add three Hercules. This encroached on the territory of the existing Logair contractors and although most decided to go after the even bigger tax subsidies available to DC-8F purchasers some decided to take Delta on head to head. Riddle, who were about to rebrand themselves as Airlift International, also acquired three Hercules in 1966-67. The Vietnam War also caused Riddle's Miami based competitor Southern Air Transport to create a Pacific Division and they began to add the L382 to their fleet during 1969. However at least one of the Airlift International Hercules was leased to the U.S. Department of the Interior and operated mostly in Alaska. It crashed during a go around at Prudhoe Bay in December 1968. Conversely Alaska Airlines were losing Sagwon traffic to Interior and started to lease out their L382s. By April 1968 one of theirs was being operated by Aerovias Ecuatorianas when it suffered a ground collision and burned out at Macuma. By early 1969 Logair contractor Flying W Airways were flying two with three more due for delivery 1969-70. The second export customer for the L382 was Pakistan International Airlines, who received at least two during 1966, but this seems to have been a way to circumvent restrictions concerning military exports to Pakistan. Always in PIA livery they seem to have been operated by the Pakistan Air Force. Certainly they were operating the one that broke up in mid air near Chaklala in 1968. PIA also acquired full military specification C-130Bs from the Iranian Air Force which operated in civilian markings. One of these was destroyed by fire during a refueling accident at Islamabad in 1969. The third export customer for the commercial L382 was Pacific Western based in Vancouver. During 1967 they took delivery of three which they used for world wide charter. One served with Trans Mediterranean Airways of Beirut from 1967 until it crashed at Cayaya in Peru during 1969. Finally in August 1969 Saturn Airways based at Oakland began to fly the L382. The first was N14ST 'Bozo'. It only just scraped into the right decade, but I reckon that just about makes the L382 Hercules a proper California Classic Propliner. 'Bozo' broke up in mid air over Springfield Illinois in 1972. The L382 had restrictive operating limits, but the wing spar was too fragile for a STOL freighter that was likely to be more heavily utilised and much more abused in commercial service that it ever was by the military. Commercial air cargo hauling was a dangerous business to be in, even when flying turbine powered aircraft. FSAviator.
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Post by herkpilot on Aug 23, 2008 0:52:22 GMT -5
Thanks for the commercial history, most of the C-130 material I've collected over the years focused on the military aircraft. The first Hercules I actually touched was a shiny, new "Flying W" aircraft in Alaska in 1969. Little did I know then that I would spend 20+ years in and around them.
The Plane had been chartered by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) to move material from Anchorage to McGrath and I was on the BLM loading crew. They had come to AK for the North Slope projects but ran into a "political" work stoppage shortly after arriving.
In later years, we often crossed paths with Saturn and Southern Air Transport birds, often in strange locations. Usually there were a few former military crew members someone would know. If I recall, Saturn spent several years hauling RR engines from the UK to Lockheed for the 1011.
The Herc is still around because little else is available that can move 10 or 20 tons of anything a long distance and land on a 2500-3500 foot dirt runway. At last count more than 2300 have been built.
Hy
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Post by Col7777 on Aug 23, 2008 1:43:26 GMT -5
Fantastic information from you guys, My only involvement with the Herky was during my years working on the apron at EGCC, we used to get a Saudi air force C-130 in on a fairly regular basis and we loaded it with various kinds of freight, in fact it still come in now. Funny, because it was a brute of an aircraft you imagine the crew to be big fellas too, but those Saudi lads were all small. I was thinking I had worked on a German air force C-130, (I wasn't that interested at the time) but now I am almost sure it was a Transall and not a Hercules.
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Post by johnhinson on Aug 23, 2008 12:29:27 GMT -5
Just been on Avsim and downloaded a lot of military flightplans (our John Hinson was involved with some of them), plus a few afcads, this should keep me busy for a while. Not guilty, sir - I think my name only appears there because they used some of my EditVoicePack files. John (strictly a civvi flyer!)
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Post by Dennis the menace on Aug 23, 2008 12:57:33 GMT -5
Very interesting reading from FS Aviator. I have a question: why do so many of these C-130s break up in flight and crash? It seems there is always some Guard unit C-130 crashing here or there. So what is the problem with them?
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Aug 23, 2008 17:16:05 GMT -5
Hi,
I believe this excerpt from his message explains it:
"The L382 had restrictive operating limits, but the wing spar was too fragile for a STOL freighter that was likely to be more heavily utilised and much more abused in commercial service that it ever was by the military. "
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Post by railrunner130 on Aug 23, 2008 22:41:29 GMT -5
I'm not sure what you are referring to Beaver. The C-130 has an excellent safety record- particularly in Guard service. It's not hard to find a crew with over 10,000 hours between the crew members.
A few things you need to keep in mind though. 1. The USAF hasn't been as aggressive with their safety program as they are today. 2. CRM (Cockpit Resource Management) is taught and practiced. 3. ORM (Operational Risk Management) is also taught and practiced. 4. The wing spar has been beefed up on H and later models. E-models have largely been removed from service due to wing spar cracks. 5. Additional safey devices, such as NVGs (Night Vision Goggles) have allowed crews to land in totally blacked-out conditions.
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