Post by volkerboehme on Aug 10, 2008 9:16:19 GMT -5
Hi,
Here is FSAviator's reply:
<<How does one fly the glide slope beam when flying the propliners? There is no NAV botton to push when the localizer kicks in and no APR button to push after centering the localizer beam. I have been hand flying the approach once the localizer kicks in but there must be a better way.>>
There certainly is a better way, and that is the way it is done in real life.
Much good advice has already been given concerning how to fly an ILS approach manually after intercepting the approach course and the mandated ILS glideslope. I have nothing to add on that subject.
However, when learning to fly the propliners it is easy to fall into the trap of sticking with what is familiar. This often makes life harder than it need be. The fact that it is easier to fly an automated ILS than any other type of approach in FS9 does not mean that it should be the hand flown instrument approach anyone learns to fly first. My advice to anyone grappling with the classic propliners is don’t try to learn how to fly an ILS approach manually until after learning how to fly much easier types of instrument approach.
The approach with the lowest minima (ILS) is the most difficult to learn. Part 3 of the Propliner Tutorial was designed to solve that problem. It starts where most FS9 users will need to start in order to master the instrument approach learning curve, step by step. I know that even the first steps described in Part 3 of the Propliner Tutorial are hard going for FS9 users with no real world aviation experience. It takes time to come to terms with the fact that there are detailed procedures to be followed well before the approach begins so that the approach begins from the optimum location, pointing in the optimum direction, in the optimum configuration, at the optimum altitude, at the optimum speed.
Often the reason that those with no aviation experience find the classic propliners too difficult is that they try to make up their own procedures, and often those are procedures in which none of the above conditions are optimised. Then many users make attempt after attempt to force the aircraft to do something it was not designed to do. The trick is to do with the aircraft exactly what it was designed to do, which is fly the real procedures, from the real altitudes, at the real speeds, from the real locations, pointing in the real directions.
It takes time to understand the real procedures, viewed from above, and side on, from the real approach plate, but it is worth the effort. Once FS9 users understand what real pilots do, and all they are trying to do is copy it, the whole process of learning becomes easier. The trick is to always be trying to do something that a propliner was designed to do, instead of something that it wasn’t.
When intending to fly a classic era propliner through the arrival and the approach the ILS approach is rarely the easiest, or even the correct, choice. The vast majority of runways don't have ILS anyway so learning to fly one has little relevance to most flights.
The first step is to use Part 3 of the Propliner Tutorial to understand how many different types of instrument approach there are. Then when arriving at an airfield pick the easiest one compatible with the current weather, not the hardest one. Don’t even practice the most difficult approaches, with mandated glideslopes, and the lowest minima, until the easier ones with higher minima, and user chosen glideslopes, have become easy to fly.
Because FS9 users must achieve this via self tuition it is very important to learn to fly instrument approaches in an aircraft that has a 'full function' autopilot. That means one which has heading hold + capture as well as VSI hold and altitude hold + capture. All the classic propliners are too complex to be ideal instrument approach trainers, but if learning to fly instrument approaches whilst flying a classic propliner is a requirement then the best choice is probably the Convair 340. The FSDZigns L-049A is an alternative, but any propliners with limited function autopilots should be avoided during instrument approach training even if FS9 users hope to cope with them later.
When learning how to fly instrument procedures FS9 users should use the autopilot as much as possible. The goal is to understand the instrument approach procedure, and then follow the procedure step by step in real time, not hand flying it. Learn to fly the real procedures using a full function AP, and only then attempt more and more parts of them manually, or with a limited function AP.
Every approach has to begin with the propliner in the optimum location, pointing in the optimum direction, in the optimum configuration, at the optimum altitude, at the optimum speed. Learning how to get into that situation is most of the battle.
Once FS9 users have achieved that, and have sufficient practice at maintaining the approach course, with a user chosen glideslope, they can attempt to add the burden of following a mandated ILS glideslope. Without those precursors it is likely to be too difficult for real airline pilots, never mind FS9 users with no aviation background. The prior phases of the flight must be used to carefully prepare for the final approach phase, whatever type of final approach is going to be attempted. It will rarely be ILS because so few runways have ILS.
I have had enough opportunity to watch enough FS9 users with no aviation background attempt hand flown instrument approaches to know that it is not the finer points of ILS technique that defeat them. They simply fail to start from a position, heading, altitude, speed, and configuration, which would ever allow them to succeed. This happens because they make up their own procedures for achieving those preconditions for a successful instrument approach, and invent procedures that are doomed to fail.
The real procedures, are the real procedures, precisely because they maximise the chance of completing a successful instrument approach. It may take considerable effort to understand the real procedures, but they are the key to success. Always start by learning to fly the least complicated instrument approach procedures that have no mandated glidepath. The NDB(A) approach is the right place for FS9 users with no aviation background to start their investigation of real instrument approaches. Part 3 of the Propliner Tutorial explains the procedures that must be adopted to have the best chance of successfully completing any instrument approach, hand flown or otherwise, step by step, procedure by procedure, and the approach plates needed to work through the tutorial are supplied within the download.
In many ways the ILS is the least important, partly because it serves so few runways, and partly because the runways that it does serve also often have easier instrument approaches that are the correct choice on most flights, in most weather conditions, until the weather is so bad that only the very difficult ILS approach has minima compatible with locating the landing runway.
FSAviator 12/06
Here is FSAviator's reply:
<<How does one fly the glide slope beam when flying the propliners? There is no NAV botton to push when the localizer kicks in and no APR button to push after centering the localizer beam. I have been hand flying the approach once the localizer kicks in but there must be a better way.>>
There certainly is a better way, and that is the way it is done in real life.
Much good advice has already been given concerning how to fly an ILS approach manually after intercepting the approach course and the mandated ILS glideslope. I have nothing to add on that subject.
However, when learning to fly the propliners it is easy to fall into the trap of sticking with what is familiar. This often makes life harder than it need be. The fact that it is easier to fly an automated ILS than any other type of approach in FS9 does not mean that it should be the hand flown instrument approach anyone learns to fly first. My advice to anyone grappling with the classic propliners is don’t try to learn how to fly an ILS approach manually until after learning how to fly much easier types of instrument approach.
The approach with the lowest minima (ILS) is the most difficult to learn. Part 3 of the Propliner Tutorial was designed to solve that problem. It starts where most FS9 users will need to start in order to master the instrument approach learning curve, step by step. I know that even the first steps described in Part 3 of the Propliner Tutorial are hard going for FS9 users with no real world aviation experience. It takes time to come to terms with the fact that there are detailed procedures to be followed well before the approach begins so that the approach begins from the optimum location, pointing in the optimum direction, in the optimum configuration, at the optimum altitude, at the optimum speed.
Often the reason that those with no aviation experience find the classic propliners too difficult is that they try to make up their own procedures, and often those are procedures in which none of the above conditions are optimised. Then many users make attempt after attempt to force the aircraft to do something it was not designed to do. The trick is to do with the aircraft exactly what it was designed to do, which is fly the real procedures, from the real altitudes, at the real speeds, from the real locations, pointing in the real directions.
It takes time to understand the real procedures, viewed from above, and side on, from the real approach plate, but it is worth the effort. Once FS9 users understand what real pilots do, and all they are trying to do is copy it, the whole process of learning becomes easier. The trick is to always be trying to do something that a propliner was designed to do, instead of something that it wasn’t.
When intending to fly a classic era propliner through the arrival and the approach the ILS approach is rarely the easiest, or even the correct, choice. The vast majority of runways don't have ILS anyway so learning to fly one has little relevance to most flights.
The first step is to use Part 3 of the Propliner Tutorial to understand how many different types of instrument approach there are. Then when arriving at an airfield pick the easiest one compatible with the current weather, not the hardest one. Don’t even practice the most difficult approaches, with mandated glideslopes, and the lowest minima, until the easier ones with higher minima, and user chosen glideslopes, have become easy to fly.
Because FS9 users must achieve this via self tuition it is very important to learn to fly instrument approaches in an aircraft that has a 'full function' autopilot. That means one which has heading hold + capture as well as VSI hold and altitude hold + capture. All the classic propliners are too complex to be ideal instrument approach trainers, but if learning to fly instrument approaches whilst flying a classic propliner is a requirement then the best choice is probably the Convair 340. The FSDZigns L-049A is an alternative, but any propliners with limited function autopilots should be avoided during instrument approach training even if FS9 users hope to cope with them later.
When learning how to fly instrument procedures FS9 users should use the autopilot as much as possible. The goal is to understand the instrument approach procedure, and then follow the procedure step by step in real time, not hand flying it. Learn to fly the real procedures using a full function AP, and only then attempt more and more parts of them manually, or with a limited function AP.
Every approach has to begin with the propliner in the optimum location, pointing in the optimum direction, in the optimum configuration, at the optimum altitude, at the optimum speed. Learning how to get into that situation is most of the battle.
Once FS9 users have achieved that, and have sufficient practice at maintaining the approach course, with a user chosen glideslope, they can attempt to add the burden of following a mandated ILS glideslope. Without those precursors it is likely to be too difficult for real airline pilots, never mind FS9 users with no aviation background. The prior phases of the flight must be used to carefully prepare for the final approach phase, whatever type of final approach is going to be attempted. It will rarely be ILS because so few runways have ILS.
I have had enough opportunity to watch enough FS9 users with no aviation background attempt hand flown instrument approaches to know that it is not the finer points of ILS technique that defeat them. They simply fail to start from a position, heading, altitude, speed, and configuration, which would ever allow them to succeed. This happens because they make up their own procedures for achieving those preconditions for a successful instrument approach, and invent procedures that are doomed to fail.
The real procedures, are the real procedures, precisely because they maximise the chance of completing a successful instrument approach. It may take considerable effort to understand the real procedures, but they are the key to success. Always start by learning to fly the least complicated instrument approach procedures that have no mandated glidepath. The NDB(A) approach is the right place for FS9 users with no aviation background to start their investigation of real instrument approaches. Part 3 of the Propliner Tutorial explains the procedures that must be adopted to have the best chance of successfully completing any instrument approach, hand flown or otherwise, step by step, procedure by procedure, and the approach plates needed to work through the tutorial are supplied within the download.
In many ways the ILS is the least important, partly because it serves so few runways, and partly because the runways that it does serve also often have easier instrument approaches that are the correct choice on most flights, in most weather conditions, until the weather is so bad that only the very difficult ILS approach has minima compatible with locating the landing runway.
FSAviator 12/06