Line up and Wait

[dave mcqueen]

Old topic, I know but...
After updating EVP to allow the word Colonial to be heard in ATC I am hearing the tower controller say "Line up and wait" instead of "Taxi into Position and Hold." Does anyone recall again how to change this back?

[aspen31]

Hi
I'm not sure but I think that in the update window of EVP there is a spot where you can select FAA or ICAO phraseology. You might try that. I believe that the phrase "taxi to position and hold" fell into disfavor in many facilities because of the possibility of mixing up "position and hold" with "position and ROLL". "Line up and wait" was deemed more concise to many.
All the best for 2009!
Warren

[capflyer]

Dunno how it could get mixed up since "position and roll" isn't a valid clearance.

Actually, didn't the FAA and ICAO just agree to change the phraseology to "Taxi into Position" for everyone and delete the "hold" as it is implied anyway? Similar to the removal of "...and hold short" from the "Taxi To" instructions.

[aspen31]

Hi again
It always came as a bit of surprise to me how apparently simple bits of phraseology could get misinterpreted. I've been retired for a while so don't really know what the current requirements although what you mentioned makes sense.
Warren

[capflyer]

I did some more digging, and the "interim" rule is that FAA and FAA-based ATC will use "Taxi into position runway xx" and ICAO-based ATC will use "Line up runway xx". A final rule is supposed to be agreed upon in the not to distant future that will select one of the two as the "universal" rule as part of the continued merging of FAA and ICAO terminology.

[dave mcqueen]

Thanks for the help and comments. I found the entry in EVP to use FAA phraseolgy over ICAO. Thanks.
Anyway... I fly the 1959 era exclusively in FS so TIPAH is the correct phraseolgy of the period.
Having worked at FAA for 37 years my observation is that whenever some horrible accident happens, mostly due to random human error, FAA feels compelled to "DO SOMETHING" and LUAW was a solution to the "problem." If that becomes standard phraseology then I have no doubt that someday a lame brain will misinterpret LUAW and cause another disaster.
As of today San Francisco Tower continues to use "runway two eight left, Position and Hold."
The only phraseology change that really had true value I remember was that which specified an altitude to maintain until intercepting a segment of an instrument approach. That prevented a pilot from descending to an altitude shown on the approach plate when he, for example, may have been over high mountains at the time, and having been cleared for approach. See amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR75-16.pdf for what caused that change. As an esteemed co-worker once told me - common sense isn't that common.

[jesse]

I recall an incident while I was still with NASA at Washington Goddard Space Flight Center. There was some confusion existing at the time.....

TWA Flight 514, registration N54328, was a Boeing 727-231 en route from Indianapolis, Indiana, and Columbus, Ohio, to Washington Dulles International that crashed into Mount Weather, Virginia, on December 1, 1974. All 85 passengers and 7 crewmembers were killed.

The flight was originally destined for Washington National Airport. However, the plane diverted to Dulles when high crosswinds, east at 28 knots and gusting to 49, prevented safe operations on the main north-south runway at Washington National. The flight was being vectored for a non-precision instrument approach to runway 12 at Dulles. Air Traffic Controllers cleared the flight down to 7,000 feet before clearing them for the approach while not on a published segment.

The plane began a descent to 1,800 feet shown on the first checkpoint for the published approach. The data recorder indicated there was some confusion in the cockpit over whether they were still under a radar controlled approach segment which would allow them to descend safely. After reaching 1,800 feet there were some 100 to 200 foot altitude deviations which the flight crew discussed as encountering heavy downdrafts and reduced visibility in snow. The plane impacted Mount Weather at 1,670 feet above sea level.

The accident investigation board was split in its decision on whether the flight crew or Air Traffic Control was responsible. The majority absolved the controllers as the plane was not on a published approach segment. The dissenting opinion was that the flight had been radar vectored. No clear indication was given by controllers they were no longer on a radar vector segment and therefore responsible for their own navigation. Procedures were clarified after this accident. Controllers would now state, "Maintain 7,000 until established on the approach". Ground proximity detection equipment was also mandated for the airlines.

Jesse

[dave mcqueen]

That was the one, Jesse. The crew even commented that the approach plate stated to remain at or above 3,400 until Round Hill (on the approach) but descended anyway. I have no first hand knowledge but I would think that the approach control by then would have had altitude readout capability and would have seen that the flight had descended to an unsafe altitude -- but I remember that back then the computers were always failing or released to maintenance for some reason or other and the controller may not have had that tool available. Not to mention that there was no requirement to fly the airplane for the pilot at that time. FAA also instituted the use of Low Altitude alerts shortly thereafter when an aircraft was observed to be too low.

[jesse]

Dave, they had altitude monitoring equipment but as you mentioned, it could have been down for maintenance. The site that handled the traffic for Washington Center in Leesburg was the site from which I retired in 1963. It was a joint USAF/FAA site. The FAA was responsible for maintaining the surveillance radar, the AN/FPS-20 and USAF was responsible for the AN/FPS6 Height Finder. The operational unit was th 649th Radar Squadron headquartered at Fort Lee, VA.

When I retired I had several job irons in the fire, one of which was a traffic controller at Washington Center.

I spent one week there in a familiarization and orientation mode and when I saw how hectic everything was, I opted not to take the assignement and joined ITT instead working as a scope dope upon the DEWLINE in Greenland. Much nicer and quieter. ;D

Jesse