Short Haul Questions

[Deleted]

Hello all,

I've flown a few short hauls lately and have a few procedural questions. I've read through FSAviator's propliner tutorial several times, so if the answer to #3 is in there and I've somehow missed it, I'll apologize in advance.

Let's use an example of an old Delta flight, CV440 service routed MSY-BTR-ESF-SHV-DAL. Would I typically load fuel for the entire flight, assuming that loading enough fuel to get me to DAL wouldn't make me overweight to land at BTR?

Second, given the 10-minute turns, would a propliner typically leave an engine running during the loading/unloading to keep the electricity flowing, or would it be a full shutdown and someone would hook up the GPU?

Lastly, reading through the tutorial it states that on some short flights you'll never get to the operational ceiling of the aircraft. That makes sense 100%. Given the mantra of "nose down" equals too fast or too low, when I fly a flights of short legs such as MSY-BTR or BTR-ESF, do I just fly a lot slower than the design TAS, or do I just keep climbing until it's time to descend, never really "cruising?"

Thanks in advance --

Matt

[Tom/CalClassic]

Hi,

The fuel issue would be one of time. If the intermediate stops are 10 minutes or less, there won't be any time for fueling. If 15-20 minutes, there's time to top off the tanks. If 30 minutes or more, then fueling is likely. Also, keep in mind there is no smoking allowed in the cabin while fueling, so that will also be a consideration. Typically they did not fuel planes at the smaller, outlying locations, only the major terminals.

The second would likely be one of GPU and personnel availability, as well as airline policy. If the GPU and personnel are available, then a 10 minute stop might shut down all engines. If not, keep one running. Stops shorter than 10 minutes (yes, I have timetables with 5 or even 2 minute stops) one engine would almost certainly stay running. At Sacramento, Pacific kept the engine running, while West Coast and United would shut them down.

The last question is indeed answered in the tutorial - look for FLIGHT PLAN CRUISING LEVEL - SHORT HAUL. It gives you the correct altitude to fly. Essentially it is 1/3 climb, 1/3 cruise, and 1/3 descent. Flying nose down on short hops was not unheard of - it's not efficient, but maximum range wasn't what was important in that case.

Hope this helps,

[Deleted]

Doh! Apparently I glossed right over that part...

Thanks, Tom.

[Dennis the menace]

Hi,

I have been on a couple of short haul propliner flights in my life. One I was on regularly was Delta's flight with a Convair 440 from Dallas/Love to Shreveport, Monroe, Jackson.......
At Shreveport the plane pulled up to the finger as seen in the Arklamiss scenery, shut down both engines, and did not refuel. I doubt it was there more than 10 minutes. It always pulled up to the right of the finger. It did the same thing at Monroe, Louisiana, and parked to the left of the terminal lobby doors. Now the one time I flew on it to Jackson (usually we always got off at Monroe) it shut down both engines and the fuel was topped off. From here it hopped and skipped to Atlanta and who knows where-all. Later on I remember flying on this same route with a DC-7. One engine was kept running at Shreveport and at Monroe.

Twice I flew Southern's 404 service from Monroe to Natchez to Baton Rouge to New Orleans. It never stopped more than a few minutes at Natchez, and left one engine running. At Baton Rouge it shut down both engines and was there longer. The flight seemed to end at New Orleans.

Once I flew Southern's 404 service from Monroe to Nashville. We sat quite awhile at Memphis, and both engines were shut down. I can't say for sure about the fuel but there was a lot of activity outside the plane. There was a few smaller stops along the way, but one engine was kept running at each stop.

I definitely can tell you that on Southern's flights to New Orleans from Monroe, the aircraft took off and flew due east right over I-20 all the way to Vicksburg, made a sharp turn to the South, and then flew right over the Mississippi River until it descended to Natchez. It left there and again followed the river all the way to Baton Rouge. Judging from how I remember the height, and how things look in FS, it could not have been more than 7 or 8 thousand feet up, if that

Maybe this helps,
Mike

[qxtoolman]

I can tell you for sure anything 10 minutes or less they did not shut down both engines. The only exception was if there was something in the front bag hold. Since I worked CV580 which is a modified CV340/440 that was the way it worked. On what we used to call the Mid-Afternoon PJE's (Puddle Jumper Expresses) which were really that jumping over all the Lakes of Upper Mich, Northern Wis & Minn. They very rarely shut down, because we had about 8 min turns, and usually only a couple passengers on or off. One flight started at KORD, then stopped at KMKE, KOSH, KGRB, KIMT, KRHI, KIWD, then back to KRHI, KCWA, KMSN, KMKE and ended where it started at KORD. Now 30-45 minutes later the plane from KDLH later KMSTP showed-up and we sent it on to KCMX, KIMT, (sometimes a provisional at KESC) KMNM, KGRB, KOSH, KMKE, then it too ended at KORD. Get out your maps and follow the bouncing Convair.....

Now before some members of our Retro AI & Cal Classic forums say "Hey wait a minute those schedules don't jive!". My friend here that worked ground at KORD for North Central will back me up, because those timetables were changed around quite a bit to keep load factors during off season times up. Because in that part of the country you have to remember it's 6 months of snow, 3 months of mud, 3 months of mosquitoes, and back to snow.

In recent times, a couple years back, here at Horizon We experimented with keeping 1 engine running on our Q100/200 (Which were not equipped with APU's) for passenger comfort in the summertime so the A/C would work. But in todays safety climate it was a big no-no, and also it was a terrible waste of precious-expensive fuel.

[acourt]

I've never flown a true propliner, but here's some of my experiences with modern propliners.

We would routinely perform "single-engine turns," leaving the right engine running for air conditioning and electrical power (the Saab has no APU). Back then, fuel was relatively cheap, and the Saab's CT7s barely burned any fuel at ground idle. The downside was having a thirteen foot prop spinning around out there at 300 RPM. One crewmember, preferably the First Officer, who had an unobstructed view of the right propeller, was required to be in his seat during a single-engine turn.

During our ten years of operation, we only had two people lose an argument with a spinning prop. One was a mechanic in South Bend, IN, the other was an America West ramper in Milwaukee. Both men survived.

As far as fuel tankering goes, we would generally carry enough fuel for one turn (i.e. MDW - SBN - MDW). That way we would have the option of a single-engine turn if needed. There were lots of other considerations, though. Remember that any extra fuel you carry is weight that must be lifted off the runway. Imagine carrying a full load of people and bags on a hot day with no wind, and then putting on an extra 2,000 pounds of fuel, and then losing an engine at V1 (which, of course, doesn't auto-feather for some reason). Maybe taking that fuel wasn't such a good idea!

We would also quite often be landing weight limited. Our maximum landing weight was 28,500 pounds, with a maximum takeoff weight of 29,000 pounds. So at MTOW, you had to burn 500 pounds before you could land (a little less then one hour flying). Quite often we'd only burn 300 pounds between MDW and SBN. So we wouldn't be able to take much extra fuel.

Just some extra thoughts.

Al