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Post by capflyer on Jan 17, 2012 12:38:30 GMT -5
From what I've seen, Microsoft may be still finalizing what they're going to release. They still haven't decided or given any hint as to what the DLC packages are going to cost, even generally, so I think they're waiting on something before doing so. I'm guessing they're in negotiations with some 3rd party developers or they are waiting for feature freeze to determine what will and won't be available on the initial core program before deciding for certain where they want to go. I think while they are not ACES, we can look at the FSX release as an example where they thought they had a good game right up until 30 days before going Gold and then getting the rug pulled out from under them, so they are probably understandably gun shy after how badly ACES got mauled (pun intended) by the Flightsim Community when that happened.
As for the other statement, I still disagree with your position because comparing a free download that is essentially a demo to a $70 boxed title is not fair to Microsoft or anyone else. If on release day the free download and $70 of DLC doesn't get me somewhere close to what I had with the boxed FSX Gold, then I would agree with you, but only in that situation.
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Post by sunny9850 on Jan 17, 2012 20:58:09 GMT -5
I have to say after reading all the comments here on this very friendly forum I am somewhat surprised any company would release much more than a preliminary teaser anymore. People judge what they have not even seen and rip apart what isn't even finalized yet. Whether or not Flight will be worth it in the end has to be determined when it is actually available. If they give the basic program to the community as a free download even a small area such as Hawaii and a couple of aircraft are fine by me. I am not about to look the proverbial gift horse in the mouth. What have I lost if after downloading and installing it turns out to be a silly game that offers nothing to me A bit of bandwidth and time. Big frigging deal....we have all done that hundreds of times with FS9 and FSX files over the many years these programs have been out. If I like what that initial game offers I will then look at what is available to upgrade the initial package, either free or for some money. I have for example for years flown only in the PAC NW and SW in FS9 because that is where I fly in real life. If that area became available at substantially increased fidelity while still being smooth to fly in with the new Game, I see no problem at that point buying such a package. It may be roughly the same expenditure I have had with the basic FS9 or FSX software. If I understand some of the ideas correctly it might indeed be possible to "earn" points in the game that can then be used to purchase further upgrades, by flying and completing missions. It might be just fun enough for those days when a "real as it gets" simulated flight just doesn't have the right appeal to me. Cheers Stefan
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Post by capflyer on Jan 18, 2012 14:40:48 GMT -5
Yes Stefan, I'm getting the impression that the earned Experience Points can be converted into Microsoft Credits (or whatever they're called) much as they can on the XBox for "purchasing" new DLC content. So there will be both free and pay mechanisms to expand the game. I'm sure there will be some "premium" content that will always require you to pay to get it (i.e. you can't "earn" them), but I'll bet most of the mainline progression DLC will be able to be acquired via XP.
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Post by sunny9850 on Jan 18, 2012 17:52:02 GMT -5
That idea really doesn't sound too bad to me. I do use my Xbox on occasion and for the most part that's how all upgrades so far have been "paid" for there. Like most folks around here I am 90% in FS9 and unlikely to give that up for ANY new sim anytime soon.
I have FSX and to be honest the only thing I have used it for, aside from the occasional test flight of an aircraft to check compatibility and to compare the Flight1 Connie to ours ( I think ours is better....but I am not entirely impartial there ) are the missions or challenges. They are great fun, take a reasonably short time for the most part and you do get a certain sense of accomplishment when you complete them.
Like I said before if Flight does that, even in a limited area, but smoother and with higher fidelity of the flight model, sound and visuals I think it will work just fine.
The X-plane aficionados always lay claim to besting MS in everything. But at least for the aircraft I have tried in version 9 I am not sure that I see much if any advantage in that simulators FDE vs FS9. The cockpit controls but in the 2D and 3D environment are severly lacking compared to MS. The Wx engine/environmental visuals do have some advantages but in my opinion not enough to tip the scales.
Cheers Stefan
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Post by chris_c on Jan 18, 2012 18:59:34 GMT -5
Not apropos of any particular post but I really don't understand the hate generated by the Flight announcements. M$ is going with the marketing trend in PC entertainment software and Flight's business model is in line with what the competition is doing. Try it or not, buy it or not but let's try to leave the hostility out of here.
Surprised that some people forget that M$'s obligation is to its shareholders, not the flight sim community.
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Post by sunny9850 on Jan 18, 2012 19:36:07 GMT -5
;D well at least around here the "hatred" seems to be limited to the usual suspect(s). And while of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, once you read a rant or two that ,to me, appears to based on false expectations and limitations on the end user equipment more than any fault of the software, you tend to skip those and move on to others that are more realistic.
In my professional life I constantly deal with customers that for one reason or another try to use sub-par materials on their machines and then can't get the ultimate quality final product they dream off. The short answer there is usually: " You really can't put crap in and expect gold to come out. If we had built such a machine, believe me I would have already bought one and would not be here in your shop. I'd be making gold in my own."
Cheers Stefan
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Jan 18, 2012 19:42:12 GMT -5
Hi,
As I stated above, I believe most of the hostility was generated by MS's statements that were something like "Flight retains the legacy flight simulator features for serious simmers". This clearly is not going to be true at release, and people got upset about that. If they would have said "we are going to create a flight game that serious simmers may also find fun and just wait for the addons", then I don't think that people would be as upset.
An interesting post made recently suggests that MS might have made those statements to scare off any potential flight sims from being created that might compete with MS products. It appears to have worked, since Aerosoft stopped work on theirs and Laminar Research appears to have rushed XP10 out the door ahead of the Flight release.
And while shareholder obligation is important, I find total lack of corporate obligation to their employees and of society's needs to be a troubling trend. This was not always true in the 1950's and 1960's. But we still had a Middle Class back then...
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Post by sunny9850 on Jan 18, 2012 22:40:38 GMT -5
And while shareholder obligation is important, I find total lack of corporate obligation to their employees and of society's needs to be a troubling trend. This was not always true in the 1950's and 1960's. But we still had a Middle Class back then...
I completely agree with this part Tom, I will not go into more detail on what I think of the whole de-regulation of everything and trickle-down foolishness....that would certainly stray way too far from the original thread and quite possibly lead to even more heated "debate".
Personally I have not followed the Flight development too closely. I watched the trailers and read the occasional blurb about it. This again goes with my philosophy that it is usually best to wait until the cake is fully baked before setting the table.
Maybe because of that I do not feel the same disappointment that some seem to feel. I do not know if MS was devious enough to claim more than they ever planned to deliver to discourage the competition, but even if I'd say well that quite frankly should not have stopped them. If they believe in their product they should build it and compete. Maybe a bit too simplistic a world view.
Cheers Stefan
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Post by capflyer on Jan 19, 2012 0:05:33 GMT -5
I'll restate my position again Tom, you are making a claim you can't support. You don't know what addons will be available at the time of release. As such, you can't claim that they aren't going to have an entire package of DLC geared towards the serious simmer available the day of release. So, saying that it's "clear" they're not going to do something can't be supported unless you've got inside information and you're breaking the NDA by making the statement, which I'm pretty sure you wouldn't do.
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Post by capflyer on Jan 19, 2012 0:09:15 GMT -5
And without stepping to far into the political waters, I don't see what "social responsibility" has to do with the development and release of Flight at all. Microsoft has no responsibility to anyone but its employees and shareholders and then only as far as they're legally required. Microsoft has a history of treating its employees far better than many in the industry, but it's still an industry that will have change and thus people will get laid off as studios are closed or realigned, which is what happened with ACES after FSX. It's not the first time and it won't be the last. Yes, we've been "loyal" to Microsoft, but we're the rarity in the world anymore. Brand loyalty by-and-large is dead. Most people will buy whatever is cheapest. So it's a two-way street. Maybe if more consumer groups would be like flight simmers and show some decent brand loyalty, maybe the brands would return the favor, but the consumers abandoned the brands first, not the other way around unfortunately.
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Jan 19, 2012 10:39:04 GMT -5
In my opinion, saying "this is the way it is" doesn't make it "this is the way it should be". In the past even flight simulation companies have felt a real commitment to their "core" customers - Terminal Reality (FLY!) and even ACES Studio (FSX) come to mind. That seems to be in the past - many insiders (i.e. Tom Allensworth of AVSIM, etc.) have stated that virtually all contact with the MS Flight team has been a one way affair - our input was not really desired, after it was decided to make a "game" (this decision was not made by the team, but by MS management above them). I certainly understand people have different opinions about corporate responsibility, and thus two were presented above. Tom Allensworth's Blog entry: forum.avsim.net/blog/1/entry-24-the-ms-flight-sim-my-thoughts/ (you must be signed into the AVSIM forum system to read this). I have never "claimed" that there would definitely not be DLC in the initial release of Flight that would appeal to simmers (although I stated that I thought it was highly unlikely, but that is just my opinion) - what I meant (and then clarified above) is that the initial FREE release would probably not appeal to many simmers. Since this is already in beta it is highly unlikely that anything significant will be added at this point, only a few months away from release. If they DO release a significant addition in this initial FREE release, then it apparently will not have been tested in the beta process, which could be a problem in itself... I also said that Bill Leaming has stated that simmers might be happy with Flight later, sometime after the initial release. In my OPINION this is the most likely case at this point. That leaves me rather hopeful about Flight, but (I believe) more realistic than those that believe that MS will somehow pull a rabbit out of the hat and come up with a real simulator at initial release, starting with the game we have been shown so far in the beta test. BTW, I am not a beta tester and am not under any NDA's of any sort. The last version I officially beta tested was FS2004.
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Post by coenraad on Apr 2, 2012 3:14:57 GMT -5
Seems that FLight is more about flying then full scale simulation. Although the planes from what i read are more realistic then the standard FS9/FSX stuff if you set it to max realism.
So on max realism i might enjoy the game. I think i will eventualy try the game if it is fun enough. But it has to beat FSX with FSPax and some great addon planes. Wich is no easy task. And it seems flight is even more heavy then FSX.
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Post by mrcapitalism on Apr 2, 2012 8:19:53 GMT -5
Mitsubishi A6M2 Zero has been released... external model only.
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Post by Dennis the menace on Apr 2, 2012 23:03:12 GMT -5
I read the pre-release announcements and all the promises made by MS about Flight.
I've seen MSFlight and it doesn't fool me.
A bunch of hopped up hoopla and phony baloney guff is what they gave the community that has stood by FS for years and years.
What they ended up sticking us with is a childish arcade game. If I want to play an arcade game then I'll stick to Lite-A-Line or Skee Ball; at least those involve some level of skill.
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Post by stansdds on Apr 3, 2012 4:54:04 GMT -5
Oh, Skee-Ball is one of my all-time favorites! As for Flight, the more I read about it the more I think I'll skip it.
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