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Post by apollon01 on Jan 22, 2024 9:00:22 GMT -5
Hello all, I have just joined the forum few days ago since it seems this is the place best positioned to give me an answer to one of my questions... Though let's go for some introduction first The WhoI am a long time simmer and a freeware content developer. Lately, I realized I was actually flying almost exclusively classic propliners (in MSFS). Flying without all the moving maps, GPSs and FMSs provides me with a sense of satisfaction which I think I do not have to explain here on CalClassic forum The ReasonMy latest endeavor was replicating a United Airlines cross USA flight westbound according to their 1953 timetable in the excellent PMDG DC-6. I was posting AARs (after action reports) over at Mudspike forum after each leg. Feel free to check them here DC-6 USA trip Westbound in 1953 United Airlines style; this post is about arrival to San Francisco ( here). After some hair rising departures and arrivals, it became obvious I needed some historically correct charts. And this is where CalClassic comes in... as I stumbled over a thread about Classic Approach Charts. The Problem & The SolutionHowever, as you might have already guessed, not all necessary navaids to fly the approach to San Francisco in early 1960s style were available in MSFS. With the right approach chart in hand and some experience in scenery creation for FSX / P3D and now MSFS, I was fortunately able to bring the missing navaids to MSFS (Fremont NDB and LOM NDB). The Idea
As I really enjoyed crossing the U.S. using old-style navigation and flying the approaches according to the period approach charts, I though about how wonderful it would be to bring all the missing navaids (NDBs and VORs) back to MSFS. Currently, many more go missing with each AIRAC cycle update The Question
And now finally comes the question! Are you aware of any reliable source of historical navaids (post WW2; NDBs and VORs) which would provide at least navaid ID, location and frequency? Preferably in tabular form as going through old maps is also possible but not very efficient. Yes, I searched myself but have not found much (=nothing actually). The What Next?This depends very much of what is available and in which form. One possible approach (as discussed on avsim) would be to use the old FSX navaid database (not great but better than the current MSFS one) or to check every single approach chart for missing navaids (not my preferred option). I have not researched yet much potential technical issues but I presume there will be some, e.g. difficulties in co-existence of default MSFS navaid database and the new one (or shall I say the old one?). There is also this thing about navaids still in place but with different frequency... etc. The Thank YouThank you for listening as far. Obviously I will appreciate any help in finding a suitable source or hint where to look. Thanks! Milan
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Jan 22, 2024 11:40:32 GMT -5
Hi Milan and welcome.
I am only aware of the lists of airport navaids found in old Jeppesen Manuals. I got a few of them on eBay (generally not cheap).
The Manuals come in two varieties, the airport diagram books and the approach plate books. They are often sold together as sets. They typically cover only a certain area - the approach plate you show above is from a book of the Western USA, about half the country.
In the diagram books there is a chapter on radio aids. In there there is a section on airport radio aids. Using SFO as an example it includes: Airport symbol (SFO) Airport VOR frequency (111.8) - none of these include the symbol, assumed to be SFO? Airport Radio Range frequency (none) Airport NDB frequency (none) ILS Frequency (109.5) Airport tower frequencies (120.5, 120.9 S, 124.9 N) Departure frequency (124.4) Ground frequency (121.8)
Other than that limited listing, I don’t know of anywhere else to get that info except from the approach plates, and even this does not include the other VORs that are nearby.
In the 1960s approach plate books, there are sometimes Standard Departure plates (SID), which are a map of a larger area with the navaids and preferred routes to leave the airport. This can give navaids outside the area of the airport itself. For San Francisco it covers the area from Red Bluff in the north to Sacramento and Stockton in the east to Salinas in the south. A total of 12 VORs.
There are sometimes also Low Altitude Area charts for an airport which display the navaids in more detail, along with the low altitude V routes between them. At the front of the approach plate books sometimes are the Low Altitude Charts in plastic pockets, which provide navaids and V routes over wide areas. Unfortunately the book I bought did not include a chart for Southern California…
Hope this helps,
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Post by Defender on Jan 22, 2024 14:25:08 GMT -5
Hi Milan, I share your enthusiasm for using contemporary navaids for the 1950's and 60's and a few of us have created files with historic Ranges, NDB's and VOR's. Researching is time consuming but fun and there's a variety of sources. I've used charts, old maps, the American Historicaerials site and even Google Earth to get accurate locations, although I have concentrated on the UK, Europe and North Atlantic area. I can get from Scotland to Greece and from the UK to the eastern USA and Canada using only historic navaids. I've got enough info on the IDL, LAX and SFO local areas but not the big stretches in between. John Hewson's huge airport photo collection also includes quite a few useful charts. He's here, www.flickr.com/photos/12530375@N08/albums/And for old route maps go here, historicalcharts.noaa.gov/Look forward to your contributions. Bill
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Post by apollon01 on Jan 22, 2024 16:24:30 GMT -5
Thanks Tom and Bill for the additional information. It looks like I am looking down a rabbit hole Before I call it a day for today, I want to share one more source I came across - Sectional Aeronautical Charts for the U.S. hosted by the Library of Congress website. It contains sectionals from roughly mid-1930s until late-1960s. This one is for San Francisco from March 1961 in order to see how it blends with the approach chart above. LINKPretty good... but boy would it be a hell of a work to extract all the navaids from that map!
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Post by Tom/CalClassic on Jan 22, 2024 17:23:46 GMT -5
Nice. You can even download it as a JPG image. Use the larger size, it's more readable.
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Post by chrisjmsargeant on Jan 23, 2024 16:19:51 GMT -5
Hi Milan, Firstly, like you I prefer flying Classics (especially the Duckworth modded DC-3 and PMDG DC-6) in MSFS and, have similarly discovered the overall lack of historical nav aids. However, the Boeing 247D add on aircraft (very complex to start and fly!) includes a Worldwide Radio Range System plus, there’s a freeware Radio Range add-on, covering North America, (I believe by the same author?) for all MSFS aircraft, available at Flightsim.to. Lastly, there’s a payware add-on the Marketplace that reinstates former VOR’s in the UK. I realise the latter isn’t the U.S., but think worth mentioning. Although on my intended shopping list, I am unaware whether any basic Radio Aids are included with the Redwing backdated scenery? Best wishes, Chris
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Post by Defender on Jan 24, 2024 9:59:57 GMT -5
Milan, that Library of Congress site is a great resource thanks.
Chris, I'm in the UK which is why I've worked on the UK navaids. Whilst it would be useful to some to have these 50 UK VOR's, Flight Global archives tells us that the first arrived 1959, there were only 6 by April 1960 and probably still only less than 20 by the mid-60's. I can give you a list if you want. I have that North American Radio Range programme installed but I'm 99& certain it is intended to cover the 1930's network. Many additions and relocations by the 50's.
To add navaids to FS9 I use Herve Sors' EasyNavs tool. Rather than add navaids by region, it's easier to add them by route, IDL-LAX for example, or by airway, Green 3 etc, and once you have all the details from the charts EasyNavs puts the route's navaids on one bgl. The hardest bit I do admit is avoiding conflicting frequencies. Each new navaid has to be tested at maximum range to see that the needle points the right way! When compiling on EasyNavs it's best to set a modest range value in busy areas.
Bill
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Post by jsaus on Jan 24, 2024 11:07:47 GMT -5
Milan, that Library of Congress site is a great resource thanks. Chris, I'm in the UK which is why I've worked on the UK navaids. Whilst it would be useful to some to have these 50 UK VOR's, Flight Global archives tells us that the first arrived 1959, there were only 6 by April 1960 and probably still only less than 20 by the mid-60's. I can give you a list if you want. I have that North American Radio Range programme installed but I'm 99& certain it is intended to cover the 1930's network. Many additions and relocations by the 50's. To add navaids to FS9 I use Herve Sors' EasyNavs tool. Rather than add navaids by region, it's easier to add them by route, IDL-LAX for example, or by airway, Green 3 etc, and once you have all the details from the charts EasyNavs puts the route's navaids on one bgl. The hardest bit I do admit is avoiding conflicting frequencies. Each new navaid has to be tested at maximum range to see that the needle points the right way! When compiling on EasyNavs it's best to set a modest range value in busy areas. Bill whoa nice. I’ve never heard of that program. I need to check it out. Can you remove navaids also that didnt exist using the same program?
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Post by apollon01 on Jan 24, 2024 11:12:01 GMT -5
OK, did some more research. There are historical maps available (e.g. those from the Library of Congress) which depict also navaids and there are Jeppesen Airway Manuals which may (or not) contain Low Airways with the relevant navaids. It seems though that neither of them provide navaid location information (in terms of lat/lon). What I have found as well, though, is Radio Facility Charts and in-flight data for the U.S. from April 1958 (the image below is an edition from 1954 but you get an idea ). (you can get a 1944 edition as a free download if you google a bit; however the 1944 edition has info about radio range nav only) I actually bought the 1958 edition from e-bay yesterday and it should arrive sometime in February (I am Europe so here we go...). Now the important bits: - 1958 was the latest year I was able to find - which somehow coincides with the culmination of the Golden Era of Aviation (defined as propliners) as the first jets (Boeing 707 and DC-8) were introduced in the late 1950s - this publication covers the lower 48 - each page shows not only the chart but also a list of navaids with frequencies, IDs and often a location provided as a distance and azimuth from some feature (e.g. airport) - I have good hope that, similarly to the 1944 edition, the 1958 edition will also contain a register of all included navaids together with lat/lon reference (we shall see) Now a bit more strategic reflection: A question to ask is how to go about which navaids to include. I mean from which timeframe. The problem is as follows: The 1958 publication above gives me a good snapshot of how it was back in April 1958. However, the historical approach charts available to us come from a wide range of years, e.g. in my U.S. westbound trip above I was using approach charts from 1950s as well as 1960s. And, obviously, many new navaids were introduced during this time as well as many were decommissioned. Case in Point: Departure from RenoLet's say we have a navaids database as of April 1958. However, the available SID for Reno comes from December 1964. (if someone know how to make the pictures appear smaller in this forum, please tell me how) If I compare this chart to the Sectional from June 1965, the navaids nicely correspond (as they should!) Check the Sparks NDB and frequency of Reno VOR. But the navaids from the 1958 period would be quite different - not allowing to fly this SID. Check the Sparks NDB not yet there in 1958, Stead NDB still there and different frequency of Reno VOR. For the moment, I more inclined to work with the snapshot 1958 approach in order to be consistent. However this means that many historical charts would not be useful pretty much as they are in the current situation. Another possibility would be to go with the snapshot 1958 and moreover bring in all the navaids from approach charts all the way up to -let's say - 1960s. A lot of work for sure I am happy to hear what you think. Thank you!
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Post by phlyer on Jan 24, 2024 11:17:00 GMT -5
You should check out old Flight Information Manuals through google books. They list airports, NDB's, VOR's, LF/MF radio ranges, even AM radio stations. Frequencies and ID's are shown along with the cities where they were located. I used the 1949 edition to research where the remaining VAR's (visual aural ranges) were still in place and then used AFCAD to modify the appropriate VOR's in FS2004 to become VAR's as per FSAviator's propliner tutorial. Finding old aeronautical charts on the interweb indicated the airways used by these VAR's, mostly in the western U.S.
Phil
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Post by phlyer on Jan 24, 2024 12:12:35 GMT -5
As an added note, if you're interested in Australian aviation, they installed and used VAR's until the 1980's I believe when VOR's started becoming the main navaid. Low frequency radio ranges never caught on there. In many ways, the history of aviation in Australia is more fascinating than here in the U.S.(IMHO)! Australia was first to develop DME (distance measuring equipment) as well as having the first VHF radio range airway system (Lorenz beacons) developed in the 1930's.
Phil
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Post by Defender on Jan 24, 2024 12:46:27 GMT -5
Sadly no. I add the word Retro to the added navaid.
Most charts can be read to the nearest minute which is accurate enough. If you're keen you can search Historicaerials maps and photos. I found the post war LaGuardia radio range site.
Yes difficult. So much changed with the jet age. But I think most CC followers are mainly interested in the years up to 1962 and if you find a year conflict then 1958 or 1959 is probably best compromise. I'd ignore SID/STARS which I think came later. However before that it seems that ATC gave clearances using a dog leg route to cruising altitude in busy areas. Arrivals involved going to the hold/stack then radar vectors in busy areas, or following the procedure turn process elsewhere.
Bill
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Post by mrcapitalism on Jan 24, 2024 19:24:40 GMT -5
I am happy to hear what you think. Thank you! Hello, and welcome to the forum! Since you're new, and you asked for input; are you aware of the CalClassic "way" of solving these problems? Many of us has spent many years doing the same flights you just accomplished, without such a project as the one you're proposing. I don't want to rebuke your project. Just give you a different option. It's actually an option you provided a pathway to within the links of your first post. But I'm not sure if you're aware of it. Since I can't say I support this "Solution," I will hold my tongue. I will only mention that I believe the "CalClassic way" is a fraction of the effort this requires, with better and more accurate results. Good luck whatever you decide.
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Post by apollon01 on Jan 26, 2024 6:36:16 GMT -5
Hello all, let me follow up a bit on the info you provided in this thread. I appreciate it! ...the Boeing 247D add on aircraft (very complex to start and fly!) includes a Worldwide Radio Range System plus, there’s a freeware Radio Range add-on, covering North America... Thanks Chris, I am well aware of those and used Radio Range on a couple of my flights in the past as well. I believe this addon does not introduce any navaid but "only" places a VOR antenna scenery object over the existing VORs. You should check out old Flight Information Manuals through google books. Thanks Phil, I was not aware of this source. It got me excited... until I found out the editions towards end-1950s (e.g. the vol 13 from December 1959) did not include lists of navaids Either I am missing some annexes or the structure of the earlier editions (like the one you mention from 1949) changed over time. This is a box yet waiting for me to be opened one day Most charts can be read to the nearest minute which is accurate enough. If you're keen you can search Historicaerials maps and photos. I found the post war LaGuardia radio range site. You are right, Bill - probably no need to hunt an EXACT location. I checked historicaerials with mixed results. Thank you for pointing me towards this source. Definitely a useful one. Since you're new, and you asked for input; are you aware of the CalClassic "way" of solving these problems? Many of us has spent many years doing the same flights you just accomplished, without such a project as the one you're proposing. I don't want to rebuke your project. Just give you a different option. It's actually an option you provided a pathway to within the links of your first post. But I'm not sure if you're aware of it. Since I can't say I support this "Solution," I will hold my tongue. I will only mention that I believe the "CalClassic way" is a fraction of the effort this requires, with better and more accurate results. Thanks mrcapitalism for your view. You bring up some valid points and as you say, even I managed to cross the U.S. using 2023/2024 AIRAC cycles pretending it was 1953. It was only towards the end of the flight when I realized I'd like to get immersed a bit more and follow the historically correct procedures. No doubt the "CalClassic way" represents a fraction of the effort when compared to the project I am researching and it does the job, though I would disagree with your statement about the "CalClassic way" giving "better and more accurate results". I believe that historically correct scenery (navaids, magvar...) would offer interested simmers more historically accurate experience. Feel free to develop this part of your reply as I think I am still missing a lot of info in order to understand the big picture correctly. --- Thanks all for contribution. I will come back when I get some news. Have a nice weekend!
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Post by phlyer on Jan 26, 2024 9:28:25 GMT -5
My PDF copy of the 1949 FIM contains 483 pages and the list of radio ranges, vor's, ndb's and var's starts on page 289 so the info is buried in there and not real easy to find. I don't think the format changed through the years but I could be mistaken.
Phil
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